[kfay]

Potentially had this one bidding a CTC hand:

1♣-(P)-1♦-(1♠)
P-(2♠)-3♥-(P)
4♣

[rogerclee]

cuebid for hearts

[Jlall]

yep

[aguahombre]

Can't be lots of clubs. That possibility went away when opener didn't rebid 2C. Therefore cue for hearts, lacking spade control (XXX KJXX QX AKXX, or somesuch).

[MarkDean]

What would double of 1♠ have been?

[kfay]

MarkDean, on Jun 2 2010, 10:31 PM, said:

What would double of 1♠ have been?

Good question!

What's your pref?

[Jlall]

I like to play support Xs

[kgr]

Jlall, on Jun 3 2010, 06:00 AM, said:

I like to play support Xs

Do support DBL's also apply for minors normally?

[Phil]

MarkDean, on Jun 2 2010, 10:31 PM, said:

What would double of 1♠ have been?

I like it double to show 4♥'s. With 3 pieces in diamonds, we can raise. If 1♦ can be a prepared call (i.e., short), obviously this can be a problem

Showing 4♥ seems to be a better use, especially since our LHO will bounce to 3♠ a lot.

The meaning of our original double impacts what 3♥ is (5-6?) and 4♣ (3 card support?).

[awm]

I think this is just a good raise of hearts. Club control is likely but maybe not guaranteed.

The issue is that 3♠ would be a hand with no clear direction (i.e. 3325 with no spade control) and not a cuebid for hearts, since the first priority is normally to pick the best strain. Of course, 3NT is to play. A 4♦ call might be a cuebid for hearts, at least if you play mandatory support doubles in the minors, but it seems otherwise reasonable to suppose it would be showing a diamond fit. So 4♣ is potentially the only "heart raise" available below 4♥.

[Jlall]

If you bid 3S you can raise hearts next and partner will know what you have! It seems like a big distinction whether or not you have a spade control. In this particular auction it will never get murky what 4H means later anyways, even over a 4D bid from partner you would not be bidding 4H as an offer to play in a 4-3.

If you play walsh what is the point of playing double of 1S showing 4 hearts? If partner has 4 hearts he has a good hand and will either bid them or make a takeout double next. That seems like an artifact from the non-walsh days. Meanwhile whether you have 3 or 4 diamonds is a big distinction, just raising with 3 is not great and is why support doubles were invented in the first place.

[kfay]

Jlall, on Jun 3 2010, 12:49 PM, said:

If you bid 3S you can raise hearts next and partner will know what you have! It seems like a big distinction whether or not you have a spade control. In this particular auction it will never get murky what 4H means later anyways, even over a 4D bid from partner you would not be bidding 4H as an offer to play in a 4-3.

If you play walsh what is the point of playing double of 1S showing 4 hearts? If partner has 4 hearts he has a good hand and will either bid them or make a takeout double next. That seems like an artifact from the non-walsh days. Meanwhile whether you have 3 or 4 diamonds is a big distinction, just raising with 3 is not great and is why support doubles were invented in the first place.

So you are saying you think with a ♥ raise and a ♠ control opener should bid 3♠ and clarify next?

Obviously this is pretty important as responder is short in spades on this auction, but it's really been my preference in the past year or so to have everyone know what's going on right away. To me over 3♠-4♣; 4♥ the auction is still murky, so here my preference was to bid 4♣ right away as a great hand for ♥ (which was my intention). Partner didn't pick up on this though and we wound up playing 4♥ when we're cold for a small slam.

I think I probably misbid my hand in the first place, though, too much CTC masterminding:

Axxx xxxx Ax AJx.... now I'm pretty sure

[mike777]

kgr, on Jun 3 2010, 10:31 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 3 2010, 06:00 AM, said:

I like to play support Xs

Do support DBL's also apply for minors normally?

4c=cue for hearts.

I do. I also play Walsh

so x here shows 3d.....


Note 1d denies a 4 card major for me unless responder has a gf hand. IT would also deny a gf hand with only 4d and 4of a major.


so 3h now shows gf hand with 5d and 4h.....so 4c is a cuebid for hearts.

[mike777]

aguahombre, on Jun 2 2010, 10:07 PM, said:

Can't be lots of clubs. That possibility went away when opener didn't rebid 2C. Therefore cue for hearts, lacking spade control (XXX KJXX QX AKXX, or somesuch).

good example.

[awm]

Jlall, on Jun 3 2010, 12:49 PM, said:

If you bid 3S you can raise hearts next and partner will know what you have!

If I bid 3♠ and partner bids 3NT, then when I correct to 4♥ partner knows what I have.

But if I bid 3♠ and partner rebids 4♦ or something, then 4♥ might just be suggesting a contract (maybe a moysian) now that 3NT seems to be unplayable. I mean, what exactly am I to do when I ask for a spade stopper and partner denies? We need to be in game somewhere and 4♥ could easily be the right resting spot. So I don't really see 4♥ there as a slam try.

[Jlall]

awm, on Jun 3 2010, 10:08 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 3 2010, 12:49 PM, said:

If you bid 3S you can raise hearts next and partner will know what you have!

If I bid 3♠ and partner bids 3NT, then when I correct to 4♥ partner knows what I have.

But if I bid 3♠ and partner rebids 4♦ or something, then 4♥ might just be suggesting a contract (maybe a moysian) now that 3NT seems to be unplayable. I mean, what exactly am I to do when I ask for a spade stopper and partner denies? We need to be in game somewhere and 4♥ could easily be the right resting spot. So I don't really see 4♥ there as a slam try.

Why would we want to play a moysian when the long hand is taking the tap? If partner doesn't bid 3N over 3S, then we can just raise whatever minor he bids depending on our shape.

We already usually have 4 hearts in this auction anyways unless we're 3325 or some hands with 4 spades (the latter being unlikely), and when we don't have 4 hearts we usually have a spade stopper, and when we don't have either of those we are very unlikely to want to play a 4-3 fit with the long hand taking the tap. On the other hand we often want to show or deny a spade control for slam purposes. I just don't think it makes sense to give away that option and make 4C an artificial try in hearts.

This post has been edited by Jlall: 2010-June-03, 21:46

[gszeszycki]

1♣-(P)-1♦-(1♠)
P-(2♠)-3♥-(P)
4♣

over the 1S bid I use X to show 4 hearts. If you use the same methods the
3H bid could easily be a search for 3N (with no spade stop). You can now have bid
3S with a partial stop or 3N with a full stop. Having chosen neither of these the 4C
bid is most likely a minimum with some club length (hopefully 5) and nowhere to go.