[olien]

My partner and I play 1♦ catchall within the following structure:
1♣=16+
1♦=catchall
1M=11-15 5+M
1N=14-16 Balanced
2♣=11-15 HCP, 6+♣ may have 4/5-card side suit
2♦=11-15 HCP (43)15, 4414, 4405 dist. always short ♦
2N=19-20(21) Balanced.

We want to play 1NT as a GF relay response to 1♦, but aren't sure how to work out the other responses. i.e. what is responder supposed to do with 33(43) or (32)44 dist and a hand in the 8-11 range?

We could play a 1♥ reply as a weak relay. Then opener re-bids 'naturally' and occasionally miss a 4-4 ♥ fit.

The other option is to scrap the idea of 1NT as the GF relay, and possibly use 2♣ instead. However, this requires changing some of the rest of the system. We've found the most workable way to do this is play 1NT as 13-15 Balanced (not 12-15 as we hate 4-point ranges), pass 11-12 point balanced hands in 1st and 2nd seat. In 3rd and 4th seat return to the aforementioned structure. Now after 1♦-2♣ have enough room to sort all hands out before 3N and we don't have the akward responding hands that the 1NT GF response gives. However, we don't like having to pass balanced hands in the 11-12 range, especially if we're not-vulnerable, so any and all recommendations are welcome.

[akhare]

EDIT: I missed the relay part, see other answer below.

Your NT range seems right, but I am not sure whether 2♦ as showing hands with short diamonds is necessarily the best use of the bid.

You can try the following structures:

1♦: 11-13 balanced OR unbalanced with 0-5 diamonds (4441, 5m431, 5m440)
...
2♦: 6+ diamonds, may have a 4 card side suit

OR

1♦: 11-13 balanced OR unbalanced with 0+ diamonds
...
2♦: 6+ diamonds, denies a 4 card major



Over this the responses can be more or less natural:

1♥: 4+
1♠: 4+
1N: 7 - bad 12
2♣: Natural
2♦: Natural
2N: Invite with good 12ish

This allows you to do things like:

1♦ - 1♥:

2♦: Good ♥ raise, could be 3 cards if unbalanced
2♥: Bad heart raise

and also

1♦ - 1♠:

2♦:
2H: Good ♠ raise, could be 3 cards if unbalanced
2♠: Bad ♠ raise

Anyway, this is just an outline -- and straube and I (foobar) play something very similar that works very well...

[akhare]

I missed the relay part last time around. It really depends on whether you are in ACBL-land or not.

If you aren't in ACBL land, Viking Club used 1♥ as natural or start of GF relay -- someone with the book can probably post the continuations...

[olien]

As for Viking Club, I have the book, so don't need anybody to post the replies. Unfortunately though, I'm in ACBL land and a relay response has to promise GF values . My partner and I discussed moving to a natural 2♦ opening, but we're not really sure if we like the responses that are available. We'd like to have fairly natural responses to it, but that's obviously not ideal; especially if it could have a 4-card major. Maybe if we played it denying a 4-card major, that could work since you never have a re-bid "problem" because if you have long ♦s, then you have a 4-card major, and if we played it would probably play it as minimum strength (like 10-13), because if 14-15 can either open 1N if no singleton or jump re-bid 3♦. I'm not sure, and individual experiences with different styles would be welcome.

Thanks again

[rbforster]

olien, on Apr 24 2010, 02:03 PM, said:

Unfortunately though, I'm in ACBL land and a relay response has to promise GF values . 

Right now your 1♦ is 2+ but doesn't have to have diamonds, say 4135 or 2425, correct? So it seems like you've still got problems in your current structure though trying to use 1N as GF relay... what do you bid with the hands that used to respond 1N, i.e. no 4 card major and less than a game force? Say 3325 wtih 6-11ish? Do you just pass and hope not to play the 2-2 fit, or do you have a special meaning for 1♦-2♣ that is more like a non-forcing version of a "forcing NT" type hand?

If your answer is that it's ok to fudge a 3 card major, maybe you should start doing that on good hands too and see how much mileage you can get along the lines of Viking's 1♥ = natural or GF relay.

[rbforster]

Here's a GCC version for responses based around 1♦-1N as GF relay:

1♦*-? (2+ diamonds)

P all normal bad hands
-------also includes hands with 5+ diamonds and constructive or weaker values (~0-8)
-------also includes hands with long clubs, short diamonds (<2), and only constructive values (5-10ish)
1M natural (optionally limited to less than a GF)
1N GFR
2♣ 3+♣, 2+♦ and constructive values (p/c for opener's better minor)
2♦ 4+♦, decent but not strongly invitational (~9-13). Non-forcing opposite min opener.
2N sound bal invitation, tends to deny diamond length (else 2♦ above)
3m long suit invitational (11-13 with a good suit)

[olien]

As for our 1♦ opening, it is 2+ and includes (24)25 hands, etc. As for combining ideas, can combine the idea of 2♦ showing 6+♦ and minimum strength without a 4-card major. I do not know what responses we should play to this, maybe 2♥=relay? Or, if it's only single-suited without a side suit (4+ cards), play 2N as the relay (which pairs well with our 1-suited relay structure). Then can play the structure suggested by Rob F:

1♦-1♥=4+ cards unless 33(43) or 2344.
...Now opener's 2♦ re-bid can substitute for a 3♥ re-bid to keep us from ending in ridiculous fits at the 3 level, and require 4 cards for a raise to 2♥.

1♦-1♠=4+ cards unless 3244
...Now opener's 2♦ re-bid can show 5+♦s 4+♥s and 2♥ can be the medium+ raise.

1♦-2m=natural NF, up to light invite values

1♦-2M=? maybe 3-suiters GF?

1♦-2N=natural INV

1♦-3m=sound invite


If somebody thinks there might be a better way to play this, would be helpful.

Thanks

[rbforster]

olien, on Apr 24 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

1♦-1♥=4+ cards unless 33(43) or 2344.
1♦-1♠=4+ cards unless 3244

The point of my P/2m/3m responses were that 1M could promise 4. With (32)44, 33(43), (332)5, etc, you bid 2♣ with a weak-but-not-broke hand. With a better hand, bid 2♦, 2N, or 3m as appropriate. With the weaker hands and no diamond tolerance and no 4cM, just pass (i.e. 3316).

I think this structure would be particularly good if you were dropping the weak balanced hands from 1♦, say when Vul. You're bypassing 1N a lot with my 2♣ catchall-no-major response, but you very likely have a minor fit instead so that's fine.

[hrothgar]

If you're playing a GF relay, how about the following

Start your relays with 1♠

3♠ = 2-3-3-5 shape
3♥ = 3-2-3-5 shape
3♦ = 2-3-3-5 shape
3♣ = 4-4 in the minors
2N = 5332 with primary Diamonds
2♠ = Any 4333
2♥ = Balanced with 4 Spades and 2-3 Hearts
2♦ = Balanced with 4 Hearts
2♣ = Two suited with Diamonds and a 4 card major
1N = Single suited Diamonds or 2 suited with the minors

The entire structure is standard symmetric (with one exception)

After

1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - 2♦

hands with Spades and Hearts are resolved one step lower than normal

2♥ = 5+ Diamonds and 4 Spades
2♠ = 5+ Diamonds and 4 Hearts, High shortage
2N = 2-4-5-2 or 1-4-7-1
3♣ = 3-4-5-1 shape
3♦ = 2-4-6-1 shape

[olien]

This seems to just be transferring the problem. What does one do with a normal 1♠ response?

[rbforster]

olien, on Apr 24 2010, 07:37 PM, said:

This seems to just be transferring the problem. What does one do with a normal 1♠ response?

I'm not sure what your priorities are in terms of accurate part score auctions vs relay game/slam bidding. If you wanted more space for relays, you could use my general structure and just swap the 1♠ and 1N responses, so now 1N show 4+ spades and a limited hand. This might go well with a direct 2♠ jump-shift to show 6+ and a specific range (constructive or inv?).

[shevek]

there's a thread about symmetric solutions

search for something like

symmetric relay structure over precision 1D

[rbforster]

shevek, on Apr 24 2010, 08:42 PM, said:

there's a thread about symmetric solutions

search for something like

symmetric relay structure over precision 1D

fixed link above

[straube]

Compare...

2D=3415,4315,4414, 4405

to

2D=1363, 3163, 3361, 2263, 2362, 3262, 2272, 1372, 3172, 2371, 2173, 1273, 1372, 0373,
1264, 2164, 0364, 3064, 2074, 0274

and you can see that if your goal is relaying (and this may not be the best goal), your 2D showing diamonds includes more hand types than does your 2D which shows diamond shortage.

This means that your 1D opening (denying 6 diamonds unless accompanied by a major) has fewer hand types that it has to relay.

Second point is that in an ideal world, one could respond 1H to 1D as either natural or GF, but this isn't allowed in many venues (ACBL). Fortunately, responder will frequently have a 4-cd major and there is usually space to relay after opener's non-fitting response.

Against opener's fitting response (a raise), there is not room to relay, but there is room to find an approximation of opener's general strength and shape.

Hrothgar showed how you could relay your 1D using a 1S GF relay. The space 1N-3N allows opener to show 144 things (hand types). If your 1N is the GF relay, you only have space to show 89 hand types. If you change the meaning of your 2D to diamonds, you have to account for 16 less hand types but that leaves you short space to describe 39 patterns.

It also denies you a useful 1N bid and introduces uncertainty when you respond 1M with a 3-cd suit.

Relaying with 2C (GF) is hopeless. Opener can only show 55 patterns now before 3N has been passed.

I like 2m to force and ask for opener to make crude approximations of his strength and fit for the minor. RM Precision uses something like this. Their 1D-2m, 2H sequence shows a balanced hand without a fit and their 1D-2m, raise shows a 4-cd balanced raise. 1D-2C, 2D shows some number of diamonds (5?) but I don't remember the rest.

[awm]

The one that seems to work quite well is 1♥ = either hearts or GF relay, with 2♥ = less than invitational natural. Then something like:

1♠ = natural 4♠; 2♣ over this is GF relay and you have plenty of space
1N = balanced no 4M or 3145/2245; can play 2-way NMF with 2♦=GF relay
2♣ = both minors; 5+♦ and 4+♣; 2♥ = GF relay
2♦ = diamond one suiter; 2♥=GF relay
2♥ = balanced with 4♥; 2♠ = GF relay
2♠ = 4♥, high shortage
2N = 4♥, low shortage

Arguably opener's rebids are mostly natural and the relays really start at responder's second call, which is GF if the relay.

If you prefer 1NT to be the relay, I'd suggest the following combination of methods:

1M = could be 3-card suit, basically natural follow-ups though, raise on 4 but never 3
1N = GF relay
2♣ = both minors, either (32)44 with a lousy 3-card suit or 2245/(13)45; opener bids longer minor or passes with equal
2♦ = 5♦ mildly constructive
2♥, 2♠ = may be needed to show two of balanced invite, club invite, diamond invite
2N = the other of the invites
3m = weak/constructive six-card suit

[olien]

Under which convention chart in the ACBL does 1♦-1♥ as either natural or the start of a GF relay fall?

[straube]

For the GCC, a bid is considered natural if for a minor it promises 3 cards and for a major it promises 4 cards. Therefore your 1H which doesn't promise 4 cards would not be considered natural. I think (hope) that the ACBL makes exceptions for this if the spirit of the law is not being violated. For instance, if I'm responding to 1H and I have KQx AKxxxx Qx xx and we're not playing Jacoby 2N, I have to set up a force somehow and might choose to respond 2C. Also, some people used to respond 1M with 3 cards prior to making a 2N invitational bid when a 2N direct bid was something else (GF?). So I might respond 1S with Axx xxx Kxx Axxx to 1D.

But I think that 1H as natural or artificial relay is right out.

You are allowed to make 1H an artificial GF but it cannot be part of a relay system. A relay system is defined as such if it starts prior to opener's first rebid. So essentially, responder has to make a natural response first and then either opener can relay responder's hand or responder can relay opener's hand (only the latter makes sense of course).

You might have better luck under the Midchart. The Midchart allows for relay systems but they have to be game-forcing. 1H then could be used as an artificial GF relay but then what do you do with your other heart hands?

[olien]

Right, I was aiming for the mid-chart definition, since I normally play in mid-chart events. It is a vague definition for a relay system in that it has to promise GF values as 1♥ is initially treated as natural and not a relay and opener's re-bids are generally natural. So, if 1♥ is a relay, it's game forcing which meets that requirement, but the fact that it might also be natural with <GF values might negate its legality. I will probably e-mail the ACBL and ask them for their opinion on the matter.

[hrothgar]

olien, on Apr 25 2010, 08:21 PM, said:

Right, I was aiming for the mid-chart definition, since I normally play in mid-chart events. It is a vague definition for a relay system in that it has to promise GF values as 1♥ is initially treated as natural and not a relay and opener's re-bids are generally natural. So, if 1♥ is a relay, it's game forcing which meets that requirement, but the fact that it might also be natural with <GF values might negate its legality. I will probably e-mail the ACBL and ask them for their opinion on the matter.

The determination whether or not a 1♥ response is natural is based on what the 1♥ opening shows NOT the definition of opener's rebids following the 1♥ advance.

[straube]

hrothgar, on Apr 25 2010, 12:43 PM, said:

olien, on Apr 25 2010, 08:21 PM, said:

Right, I was aiming for the mid-chart definition, since I normally play in mid-chart events.  It is a vague definition for a relay system in that it has to promise GF values as 1♥ is initially treated as natural and not a relay and opener's re-bids are generally natural.  So, if 1♥ is a relay, it's game forcing which meets that requirement, but the fact that it might also be natural with <GF values might negate its legality.  I will probably e-mail the ACBL and ask them for their opinion on the matter.

The determination whether or not a 1♥ response is natural is based on what the 1♥ opening shows NOT the definition of opener's rebids following the 1♥ advance.

I agree with Hrothgar.