[CarlRitner]

So, it's been 20 years since Max completed his third (and by some accounts, final) treatise on the Two Over One system, inaugurated by Richard Walsh. For those of you who play the 'hard rules" version (100% Game Force to 3NT/4x) I am curious as to how much benefit you got out of the book, how faithful you adhere to his methods, and if you've found anything published since that helps you out at an advanced level.

With my own 2/1 system currently pieced together from various books, articles here and there and a few tips from different directions, it's time to sit down and put together a detailed system notebook. I figured I start with this book. I also have the Mike Lawrence "soft rules" workbook, and after a cursory review, I think I might want to stick with the stricter version. But I am open to suggestions and/or persuasion.


Any really good books or other resources out there I am unaware of?



Carl

[rogerclee]

Are you looking to play a very detailed system after 2/1 or just to learn solid fundamentals? Anyway Hardy's book is good for neither of these things.

[CarlRitner]

I'd like to review my fundamentals to make sure they are solid, since I know there are areas that aren't, then I'd like to build on that and work in a simplified but comprehensive system. That might sound contradictory but it really isn't.

What I am trying to say is I don't need every bell and whistle but I want to make sure what I do have is followed through to its logical end.

Hardy's red book was a disaster. The one I am thinking of using is the yellow book. As near as I can tell there's still issues with his competitive bidding, but the fundamental ideas in the front half seem sensible.

[Stephen Tu]

Hardy's yellow book is still a disaster IMO. For a book on 2/1, there's very, very little discussion on actual 2/1 sequences. Just a whole bunch of gadgets he happens to like. Not nearly enough on continuations after a 2/1.

You'd be much better off with Lawrence IMO, if you like 2/1 absolutely GF get his CD rather than his old workbook. His old "uncontested auctions" book, out of print, if you can find it, is also excellent.

[peachy]

The latest book was published in 2000 (The green book) and some additional options for bidding in 2002 (The purple book). Much better and not outdated like the Yellow book is.

There seem to be people who judge and/or dislike the "Hardy Style of 2/1" system without having even read the book, published just before he passed away.

The differences betwen Lawrence and Hardy styles are minor.

[CarlRitner]

peachy, on Apr 17 2010, 11:09 PM, said:

The latest book was published in 2000 (The green book) and some additional options for bidding in 2002 (The purple book). Much better and not outdated like the Yellow book is.

Peachy,

That would be the "Standard Bidding for the 21st Century" and the "Advanced Bidding for the 21st Century" which were very possibly rewritten by someone other than Max Hardy. I have these somewhere in cartons stashed away. I will have to give them another read. If I can find them.


Stephen,

I have both of Lawrence's books but not the CD. I suppose I will have to try that. I have resisted the CD route so far (for travel) since the batteries never die in my books. However, the CDs are much lighter.


Thanks,

Carl

[whereagles]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 18 2010, 02:59 AM, said:

Hardy's yellow book is still a disaster IMO.

yes

[aguahombre]

Bash away, folks.

Richard Walsh and Max Hardy set down a 2/1 framework, which was a compilation of the thinking of some damn clever people at the time.

Many successful partnerships have used this framework to develope solid systems of their own. The cornerstones of the orginal 2/1 books, as published are still quite useful:
Forcing NT; setting GF early for slow exploration; NMF; size and shape jumps; etc.

Later gadgetry such as Bergen raises and J2N can be plugged into the mix, but do not have to be. Lawrence's reintroduction of strong jump shift responses --particularly 2D/1C and 2S/1H is definitely a worthwhile improvement.

Many other improvements (better Leben agreements, kickback, etc) do not diminish the value of the Hardy books as valuable references.

[peachy]

Carl, on Apr 18 2010, 08:06 AM, said:

peachy, on Apr 17 2010, 11:09 PM, said:

The latest book was published in 2000 (The green book) and some additional options for bidding in 2002 (The purple book).  Much better and not outdated like the Yellow book is.

Peachy,

That would be the "Standard Bidding for the 21st Century" and the "Advanced Bidding for the 21st Century" which were very possibly rewritten by someone other than Max Hardy. I have these somewhere in cartons stashed away. I will have to give them another read. If I can find them.

You post another incorrect statement (the first one was in the original post: "20 years ago"). There is no foreword to that effect, no co-author mentioned, nor any other indication that it was not Max Hardy who wrote Max Hardy books.

This is how rumors get started

[peachy]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 17 2010, 09:59 PM, said:

Hardy's yellow book is still a disaster IMO.

Agree on that, don't know of anyone who wouldn't agree.
However, the green book, published in 2000, "Standard Bridge Bidding for the 21st Century" is a complete description of the 2/1, a great textbook and reference for an advanced or intermediate player who is just switching to 2/1 or for someone who wants complete system notes.

[CarlRitner]

I did not say someone else wrote them. I said someone else possibly rewrote them.

This was the first time they were published by someone other than Max Hardy, and it's not an unfair assumption that the material was edited in format and content for the new editions. I read these books several years ago and I recognized a change in the overall style. Maybe Mary took on a larger role.

One of the leading causes of discontent with the earlier books was the formatting and lack of smooth flow. Max Hardy acknowledged this as early as 1989.

[Winstonm]

I don't know if there is any single great book on 2/1. To understand the transformation of 2/1, though, you have to go back to 1975 and Hardy's first book: Five-Card Majors, Western Style.

Prior to this book the West Coast used predominantly 4-card majors, as did the predominat Italian club system of the time, Neopolitan. The conversion to 5-card majors allowed 2/1 to be used as a game force.

Precision then integrated 5-card majors with a forcing club, allowing both a forcing club and a 2/1 structure within the same system.

You may also want to research Eastern Scientific, Western Scientific, and Aces Scientific before you make a final determination of methods.

[CarlRitner]

Winstonm, on Apr 18 2010, 12:28 PM, said:

Precision then integrated 5-card majors with a forcing club, allowing both a forcing club and a 2/1 structure within the same system.

I'd like to learn more about this. Are there any good resources available?

[gwnn]

Lawrence is a solid book and it also includes, as a bonus, 2/1's in competition.

[Winstonm]

Carl, on Apr 18 2010, 11:50 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 18 2010, 12:28 PM, said:

Precision then integrated 5-card majors with a forcing club, allowing both a forcing club and a 2/1 structure within the same system.

I'd like to learn more about this. Are there any good resources available?

Carl,

I really don't know if anyone has written a definitive history of bridge bidding, but my own reading has been extensive and covered many, many years. The evolution of bridge bidding was mostly caused by the success of the Italians between 1955 and 1965, when they won every world championship using Neopolitian, Roman, and Little Roman. A little of the taste of the times can be found in Howard Shenken's book - he was about the only expert of the time to understand that it was the advantage held in the bidding that made the Italians so difficult to defeat.

Power Precision - Sontag's book - is one in which the concept of forcing club, strong NT, and 2/1 are incorporated for the first time (as far as I know). That is about the last time I tried to keep up with systemic changes, so anything new after that period of time (like McWell's versions) is unfamiliar to me.

Although I have no proof, I highly suspect that the reason, when forced to do so by the guy paying the bills, Hamman-Wolff chose their version of the Italian club system was so they could continue to play 4-card majors.

[Siegmund]

The Yellow Book had a lot of interesting ideas in it (many of them mainstream-2/1, as well as many toy gadgets of Hardy's own system), and did contain a sound bidding system, but you REALLY had to want to learn the system to make yourself decipher it the way it was presented in that text.

The Green Book is a much better organized version of almost the same basic system. I too remember wondering if he had had a ghost writer; it may have been as simple as he had a publisher and editor instead of self-publishing. He gave good lectures with well-organized lecture notes our regionals the last few years of his life too: maybe he just devoted more time to preparing readable material after he quit directing and started to emphasize teaching over pro playing.

The Purple Book unashamedly contains whole chapters written by "guest authors" about each of several conventions that can be added to 2/1.

At any rate, he was VERY influential in the Northwest (and I would presume similarly so in the Southwest where he lived.)

As for Lawrence vs. Hardy 2/1 - among Hardy devotees, "Lawrence 2/1" was sometimes used to describe (and disparage) the 1M-2m-any-3m-is-not-forcing approach (SA with 1NTF, not 2/1 at all, if you ask me), but I thought it had mostly to do with whether a 5332 hand after 1M-2m rebid 2M or 2N. If you like the 3m-rebid-not-forcing style, Goldman's Aces Scientific is very readable and logical.

[CarlRitner]

Power Precision - Sontag's book - is one in which the concept of forcing club, strong NT, and 2/1 are incorporated for the first time (as far as I know)


That's the short answer, thanks. Although the complete history of bridge bidding would be a fascinating read, it's probably overkill.

The whole purpose of bringing up the subject, and Max Hardy's book, was to identify a suitable "cornerstone" I might use to rebuild or at least refurbish my own 2/1 system.

[whereagles]

Power Precision is a great book, but the theory in it is very poorly written. You'll have to go through it with pen and notepad to deduce the systematics in it.

[CarlRitner]

You mean like I'm doing now with Max Hardy? I had to go to Staples for a new set of highlighters.

If someone like Larry Cohen would have written this, I'd be an expert already

[eyhung]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2010, 10:04 AM, said:

Power Precision is a great book, but the theory in it is very poorly written. You'll have to go through it with pen and notepad to deduce the systematics in it.

Many years ago, I did just that and converted Power Precision to a "system note" format.

Daniel Neill has a copy of my transcription on his systems page here:

http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/SWPow...c_fromEHung.doc