[Rossoneri]

awm, on Apr 20 2010, 11:30 PM, said:

I'm curious as to how such programs have fared in other countries which have run them for longer than the USA (if such exist).

Well, I gave a short account on the situation AFAIK currently back in Singapore. Although admittedly, there are a lot less logistical problems doing this in such a small country.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:31 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 20 2010, 07:25 PM, said:

All are happy

I hope you don't really believe that would be the case.

Well Josh, you can never make everyone ecstatic, but at least it would be better than what we have now.

[helene_t]

The_Hog, on Apr 21 2010, 01:25 AM, said:

Who said anything about different charts

Well there would be a restricted and an unrestricted chart. OK, the unrestricted chart may be only two words ("no restrictions"), so at least it would be easy to memorize . But apart for that, the problems with it that I envision still stand.

Quote

why would club members be unhappy or even have to be involved in silly discussions?

Somebody has to decide. OK in the US where most clubs have an owner, the decision process is simpler. Here in Europe it would be a dreaded democratic process.

Quote

Why would you have to bring 2 different convention cards. I think you misunderstood my proposal

Well if it only applies to Vanderbilt while all minor events and club nights just played the standard charter, then the only players who needed two different systems would be those who played in the non-standard tier at the Vanderbilt. But if you want to make "everyone" happy, then clubs and minor tournaments should offer a choice of charts also. So lots of players would sometimes find themselves in one type of event and sometimes in another.

[the hog]

"So lots of players would sometimes find themselves in one type of event and sometimes in another. "

Yes, but by their choice, Helene. Anyway, this is a moot point. It is as unlikely to happen as for me to win the lottery.

[chasetb]

As one of the young players, I believe that my personal experience can shed the light needed. I am 22, a college senior, and have been playing Bridge for just over 13 months now. I learned Standard American entirely on my own by reading The Complete Idiot's Guide to Bridge (1st Edition) and entirely because I was bored (new Quarter) and wanted to understand the daily column in the local newspaper.

I have tried to teach my friends, but most laugh it off. The top 2 reasons are that "It's a rich old person's game" and "I don't have the time". I can understand the time aspect- I can't play in the local game because of classes; I make a 90 minute drive one-way once every two or three weeks to Pittsburgh to play. The one person that did try to learn from me gave up after 3 weeks because he didn't want to spend the little bit of time every day to learn it- he tried 90 minute sessions once a week, and it didn't work. He just didn't want to put in the 30 minutes a day I told him to, and I racked up $3 in late fees for nothing.

The perspective is that it just seems like a pain to spend all that time in the beginning when you aren't getting any satisfaction. Conversely, I can pop in Call of Duty- Modern Warfare 2, and within 5 minutes I am talking smack when getting kills, and calling people cheaters when they kill me. Technology created instant gratification, and Bridge just doesn't provide it (at first).

I am the youngest person at any local tournament; I am the youngest at my club by almost 30 years, and I would guess the average age at the club is pushing 65. Of these players, very few, if any have taught their children to play Bridge. We have had 2-3 people join in the past 6 months, and they are in their 60's and came from playing Party bridge.

At the club (which has roughly 65-70 members and has no clubs within 20 miles), there are only 10 people including myself that can play 2/1, and only myself that can play a Precision Club. Of course, I live on the edge of nowhere in West Virginia, but even in Pittsburgh, PA, there are only 5-6 people up there that play Precision Club, and over half of all the people from Pittsburgh I would say play Standard American with a tweak here or there.

All Clubs in the US control what systems can be played, but to ensure they make money, 99.9% use the ACBL GCC. After all, when over half the people play Standard American, you don't want to scare them and lose their money by allowing a Strong Pass, or even possibly a Polish Club system. System regulations ensure that Bridge can survive. I would like to see that at a National or International event that anything goes, but it's crazy to remove them at anything less then a world class event.

If you want to swell the ranks of younger players, you need to have a widespread movement. Start teaching it in schools, and start spreading the word that to become rich like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, you need to play Bridge. Public schools in Cleveland, OH, are supposed to start teaching 7th and 8th graders Bridge this September if they want to not take a math class, so that's a start. If you can expand that to all major cities, but replace Home Ec. or other not important classes, you could solve the youth problem.

Otherwise, the few young people that do play today have either been taught by family, or are the unusual person who picks it up like me. If it wasn't for that column in the local paper, I wouldn't be posting this today...

-Chase B.

[jdonn]

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

[chasetb]

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

I said NON important classes, like Home Economics or Music Appreciation or Health class (7th and 8th grade only, as it's a High School requirement to graduate in Ohio).

[straube]

I thought it was a good post. It's true that Bridge takes a big investment, especially up front. I remember trying to teach some interested dental students once. Their great idea was to reserve one lunch period a week to learn it. I tried to tell them that they'd never learn that way...that they had to immerse themselves in it and of course they got nowhere.

I always thought that the best way to teach bridge was to start with an easier game such as Spades so at least the trick-taking/trump concept is down. Maybe the ACBL could use that as a stepping stone. At least there's sooner gratification.

I'm all for bridge clubs in schools. It would be nice to see it take hold in the math or computer science departments/ students.

[akhare]

straube, on Apr 21 2010, 08:37 PM, said:

I always thought that the best way to teach bridge was to start with an easier game such as Spades so at least the trick-taking/trump concept is down.  Maybe the ACBL could use that as a stepping stone.  At least there's sooner gratification.

Yup -- I learnt bridge only in my late 20s, but had been playing Hearts for a few years before that.

Suits and trumps weren't a problem because I had been exposed the Indian card game of 304 (three nought four) and several other simpler 3 and 2 person card games with trumps growing up...

[mrdct]

I might come off sounding like a heretic, but I'm not convinced that bridge within a normal school curriculum is the answer.

Learning bridge takes a lot of time and even if you can get your foot in the door with a school, a couple of periods per week just isn't going to give the kids the time to learn the concepts and gain familiarity with common situations. I think after-school programmes or school holiday programmes are a much better idea (the latter being the way I learnt the game in a one-week crash course right after I finished high school).

I've recently taught my 13 year-old son to play the game which I did with a combination of one-on-one instruction, playing on BBO and having him go through Fred's ACBL Learn to Play Bridge stuff on BBO. It probably took him a good three or fours months to "get it" but now he's quite competent as far as the local club duplicate is concerned and has his sights set on doing well in tournaments. A few points I'd like to make:

- Teaching my son to play bridge has been one of the most rewarding experiences I've had in my life and has given me an activity that I can share with my son for the rest of my life. There will be some hard yards involved, but in the end your efforts in teaching bridge to your kids will be rewarded so I implore all of you to give it a try.

- At 13 kids pretty much remember everything and have enough maths, statistics and problem solving skills to play bridge so it is an absolutely ideal age to teach the game.

- On the original topic of youth bridge and system regulations, my son is desperate to play some of the stuff he sees his heros playing on vugraph (his heros being the current crop of Australian youth players who have been doing very well in open events) but he understands and respects my insistence that he delay moving towards complex methods and conventions until he has got all of the natural stuff down-pat. I think it would be counter to his development if he was playing artificial and complex methods at this stage, but within reason I think it's good for him to play against such methods as it gets him thinking about bidding theory and system optimisation. As his competence improves it is inevitable that he will want to experiment with more complex methods and luckily we live in a country where he will be able to do that reasonably easily.

[jdonn]

chasetb, on Apr 21 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

I said NON important classes, like Home Economics or Music Appreciation or Health class (7th and 8th grade only, as it's a High School requirement to graduate in Ohio).

Sorry but what makes bridge more important than those classes (health class??) I can think of some reasons it's less important.

[georgeac]

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 10:28 PM, said:

chasetb, on Apr 21 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

I said NON important classes, like Home Economics or Music Appreciation or Health class (7th and 8th grade only, as it's a High School requirement to graduate in Ohio).

Sorry but what makes bridge more important than those classes (health class??) I can think of some reasons it's less important.

I can understand your reasoning for Health but Art or Music Appreciation do not give much value to an education outside of being more cultured.

[straube]

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 10:28 PM, said:

chasetb, on Apr 21 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

I said NON important classes, like Home Economics or Music Appreciation or Health class (7th and 8th grade only, as it's a High School requirement to graduate in Ohio).

Sorry but what makes bridge more important than those classes (health class??) I can think of some reasons it's less important.

I think you're being a jerk. "Sorry but" is just another overuse of your sarcasm.

Why put Chase on the defensive as he (and you conceded) wrote a useful post? You could have just said that you didn't think bridge should be taught in schools but thanks for his perspective on why young people aren't taking to the game. That would have been more nice.

[blackshoe]

georgeac, on Apr 22 2010, 02:50 AM, said:

I can understand your reasoning for Health but Art or Music Appreciation do not give much value to an education outside of being more cultured.

As someone who had to pursue those subjects on his own, not having had the benefit of them in school, I'd say they have quite a bit of value. In particular the study of art and music has historical implications, so there's more than just "more cultured" there. IMO, anyway.

[the hog]

georgeac, on Apr 22 2010, 01:50 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 10:28 PM, said:

chasetb, on Apr 21 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

I said NON important classes, like Home Economics or Music Appreciation or Health class (7th and 8th grade only, as it's a High School requirement to graduate in Ohio).

Sorry but what makes bridge more important than those classes (health class??) I can think of some reasons it's less important.

I can understand your reasoning for Health but Art or Music Appreciation do not give much value to an education outside of being more cultured.

Are you serious? Well I guess you are, however some of us find these areas intrnsicely valuable and they add to the richness of life.

[CamHenry]

straube, on Apr 21 2010, 08:37 PM, said:

I always thought that the best way to teach bridge was to start with an easier game such as Spades so at least the trick-taking/trump concept is down. Maybe the ACBL could use that as a stepping stone. At least there's sooner gratification.

I'm 27, and have been playing bridge for 5 years, duplicate for 3. When I first learnt to play bridge, it was because my girlfriend and her sister and mother wanted to learn, having been on a cruise where there were bridge classes, but father didn't have the time/inclination. I read through Goren's Bridge Complete (1974 edition, I think), and made crib-sheets for the bidding systems. We started off by bidding everything along the lines of "1 heart: that means I've got 13+ points and 5 hearts"; after a rubber or two we ditched the explanations.

I grew up, however, playing card games with my own family. Simple things, but I knew how to follow suit, how to take tricks in a trump contract, and that you should "always" use the lowest card possible to win a trick. This early training gave me a significant advantage in beginning declarer play, which meant I could concentrate on the new and (to me) more difficult aspect: the bidding.

These days I play any system I can get my hands on; by choice a highly-artificial strong diamond thing, but in a natural context I'll play Acol, 2/1, SAYC, EHAA etc. with about the same limited level of success. I wouldn't stop playing bridge because of system regulations, but I would probably be looking for the edge cases in whatever regulations existed.

In England (at least) there's a game used in teaching called "Minibridge". As I understand it, each of the three players announces the point count of their hand; the one with the highest total has a look at the dummy and nominates the contract. You then play as normal. I think this could be a good introduction for many!

[junyi_zhu]

awm, on Apr 20 2010, 10:30 PM, said:

I do think targeting colleges is a good idea.

Of the young players I can think of who play at least some tournament bridge (aside from things specifically targeted towards youth players), most of them either picked up the game from parents who are serious duplicate players, or got into the game in college.

Perhaps this is changing now through the "bridge in schools" programs and youth NABC? I'm curious as to how such programs have fared in other countries which have run them for longer than the USA (if such exist).

It may be worth mentioning that a lot of "baby boomers" actually didn't learn to play bridge as kids. Even though almost all their parents played at least a little social bridge, they didn't seem to teach their kids. My parents (coming up on retirement age now) and the vast majority of their friends have never really played bridge. This is going to make it a lot harder to attract retiring "baby boomers" to the game than it was to attract their parents at retirement age, and I think was one of the points made in VMars's post.

Agree. It's actually very ineffective to recruit recent retirees as the the major target of bridge in US. Most pick up this game late will never be as good or devoted to this game as young players. Of course, they may be able to pay the entry fee easily comparing with teenagers, but this is not a game about table fee IMO. More than ten years ago, in my early bridge life in China, I never paid anything to enjoy good bridge at schools. The bridge club in the university is free. At some senior students' dorm, one can always enjoy good bridge when the bridge club is not on. Also, I tried my best to teach my friends and roommates at that time. Some of them are still active players now. That's actually the key to this game. It's a game, not a business. It's all about devotion, competition, love, not merely a senior center activities.

[jdonn]

straube, on Apr 22 2010, 02:03 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 10:28 PM, said:

chasetb, on Apr 21 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes let's have kids learn card games instead of math in schools, then tell them that by doing so they will be among the top 3 richest people in the world. That would probably turn the tide. And who needs to learn about silly topics like nutrition anyway?

Actually your post was doing pretty well until it got to that part.

I said NON important classes, like Home Economics or Music Appreciation or Health class (7th and 8th grade only, as it's a High School requirement to graduate in Ohio).

Sorry but what makes bridge more important than those classes (health class??) I can think of some reasons it's less important.

I think you're being a jerk. "Sorry but" is just another overuse of your sarcasm.

Why put Chase on the defensive as he (and you conceded) wrote a useful post? You could have just said that you didn't think bridge should be taught in schools but thanks for his perspective on why young people aren't taking to the game. That would have been more nice.

"Sorry but" was not sarcastic in any way. Anyway what do you want from me, I said he wrote a useful post as you note, and I am glad to have his perspective.

Except at the end he recommends replacing normal school subjects with bridge. How should I treat such a bad suggestion, coddle him? Of course that would be good for bridge, just as replacing normal school subjects with marbles would be good for the game of marbles. But bridge is a GAME, and is not anywhere near more important than what is currently taught.

[straube]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Sarcasm generally involves saying something that you don't literally mean...like when you say you're sorry and you don't mean it. As wikipedia points out, some people with dementia aren't able to discern it. When you use sarcasm with the able, you insinuate that they are demented and not able to tell the difference.

No, I don't want you to coddle anyone. Just point out your disagreement politely.
And if someone makes 5 good points and 1 bad point, you don't have to spend most of your response on the 1 bad point.

[jdonn]

Yes mommy. I'll spend 10 paragraphs complimenting the good points and then in very tiny font at the bottom put "but this is the problem." Because obviously the point of a discussion isn't to reach a consensus or find problems that will improve our points of view, it's to make everyone feel good.

(See I know what sarcasm is. Unlike you who apparently knows whether I mean it or not when I say I'm sorry?)