[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Apr 9 2010, 02:31 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 9 2010, 02:29 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Apr 9 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

1♠ - 2♥ is a very awkward sequence in 2/1 or even in Standard.  For this reason, I adopted a method from a friend of mine who plays this with some internationalists.

1♠ - 2♥ 5+ hearts, 10+HCP, not game forcing.

If you are otherwise playing 2/1 game forcing, why would you want to take the sequence you admit is awkward and put more hands into it?

Quote

Very simple and very effective.

Um.... lol, half right!

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

Who says I haven't tried it? You think I liked being a strong 5422 that has to choose between missing slam with 4♥ or getting too high with blackwood? Or being responder on a game force with 6 hearts and having to make up a minor suit, or insist on a possible bad heart fit, or be 2722 with extras and have no rebid? That when I was opener and rebid 3♦ and partner bid 3NT I didn't know if he had 10 or 15?

Btw you didn't answer my question.

[Bbradley62]

aguahombre, on Apr 9 2010, 10:39 AM, said:

After this start in 2/1, responder can also mark time with 2NT --confident that it, too, is forcing. So, opener can start to unscrew the auction at the 3-level if needed.

If 2♠ and 2NT are both marking time with a minimum, what is the distinction between the two? Shouldn't 2NT imply a balanced hand?

[Phil]

2♠.

Max Hardy is rolling over in his grave.

[neilkaz]

aguahombre, on Apr 9 2010, 10:12 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Apr 9 2010, 09:54 AM, said:

....... and the raise from 2 to 3♥ rather than a direct jump to 4♥ is played by many as having at least mild slam interest.

While getting off-topic ---I agree that many people do this, but disagree with the concept.

2/1 allows auctions to develope at a leisurely pace. "Fast arrival", though it shows a minimum, also consumes bidding space for the times responder is not minimum ---often leaving responder with only Blackwood available as a tool.

Many people feel that unnecessay jumps should be "picture bids", denying any control in the other two suits and a minimum. This information might be more useful to partner than a random fast arrival. They are content that a simple raise in a 2/1 auction merely shows support and might or might not have extra values.

We agree 100% about fast arrival in this 2/1 auction-type.

[aguahombre]

Bbradley62, on Apr 9 2010, 01:57 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Apr 9 2010, 10:39 AM, said:

After this start in 2/1, responder can also mark time with 2NT --confident that it, too, is forcing.  So, opener can start to unscrew the auction at the 3-level if needed.

If 2♠ and 2NT are both marking time with a minimum, what is the distinction between the two? Shouldn't 2NT imply a balanced hand?

the 2NT I was referring to is the rebid by responder after the 2S rebid by opener. Yes a 2NT rebid by opener as opposed to 2S rebid is size and shape showing.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2010, 07:29 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Apr 9 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

1♠ - 2♥ is a very awkward sequence in 2/1 or even in Standard.  For this reason, I adopted a method from a friend of mine who plays this with some internationalists.

1♠ - 2♥ 5+ hearts, 10+HCP, not game forcing.

If you are otherwise playing 2/1 game forcing, why would you want to take the sequence you admit is awkward and put more hands into it?

Quote

Very simple and very effective.

Um.... lol, half right!

I play 2/1 as non-fg in one partnership. 1S - 2H is still a very awkward sequence. We only solve the problems by introducing a different set of artificiality (2NT by opener is multi-way including some strong heart raises; and 1S - 2H - 2S - 3D by responder is also artificial).

In my 2/1 partnership we think we can only solve all the problems of 1S - 2H by introducing almost completely artificial continuations. The incremental gain isn't that big (because most hands sort themselves out eventually anyway) but my partner likes system and there is definitely a gain.

I don't think this sequence is easily soluble without some artificiality.
On the actual hand I don't hate 3H as much as other people seem to, but unless you've agreed that 3C does not show extras (which is a possible agreement but not really standard) you are stuck with the 2S "I don't have anything else to say" rebid, showing pretty much any unbalanced minimum without heart support (and some non-minimum hands too).

[gwnn]

3♣ lies about a King or so
3♥ lies about a heart

I think lying about support is much worse than lying about strength..

[aguahombre]

gwnn, on Apr 11 2010, 05:24 AM, said:

3♣ lies about a King or so
3♥ lies about a heart

I think lying about support is much worse than lying about strength..

this is true. but 2S doesn't lie about anything. It just says you have no descriptive rebid --if playing the most common form of 2/1 and have discussed it with partner.

[gwnn]

oh yes, I forgot to add that I would definitely bid 2♠

It was my impression that some people considered 3♣ as worse than 3♥ and I dont know why

[lmilne]

I play 1♠-2♥-2NT as 5S, minimum, unbalanced. Denies heart support.

I guess my system is gonna be different to what a lot of folks play (we open our 18-19 bal hands 2♣, so we don't have to worry about them in this sequence) but what do people think of the general idea? Allows you to differentiate between 5 and 6+ spades immediately, and gets you the strength definition of the high reverse.

[FrancesHinden]

lmilne, on Apr 11 2010, 01:03 PM, said:

I play 1♠-2♥-2NT as 5S, minimum, unbalanced. Denies heart support.

I guess my system is gonna be different to what a lot of folks play (we open our 18-19 bal hands 2♣, so we don't have to worry about them in this sequence) but what do people think of the general idea? Allows you to differentiate between 5 and 6+ spades immediately, and gets you the strength definition of the high reverse.

Well, I play 1S - 2H - 2NT as any hand with six spades; 1S- 2H - 2S as the 'catchall'. Same principle except that you have more room opposite the undefined hand, vs playing 3NT the wrong way up slightly more often.