[jillybean]

mikeh, on Mar 30 2010, 08:57 AM, said:

Having bid 1♠, and using standard J2N (there are many better schemes)

Mike, please elaborate.

[mikeh]

There are several and the ones I play currently are not, technically, the best as far as I can judge, but they combine relative simplicity with better than standard accuracy.

First:

3♣ any non-minimum with a stiff, or 18+. Minimums are not judged solely on hcp. 3♦ asks for the stiff, with step responses: 1st step=clubs, etc. with 18+ (never come up yet), any bid by opener beyond the 3rd step is a cue bid and announces 18+...in essence a virtual slam force unless we discover either an uncontrolled suit or 2 missing keycards.
3♦ any 5422, but the 4 card suit is Q10xx or better...the idea is to maximize the chances of finding a slam-suitable 4-4 fit. 3♥ asks for the suit, step responses...any bid other than 3♥ is a cue, rejecting the 4-4 fit idea
3OM (other major): undisclosed void, next step asks, step responses
3M: minimum with a stiff, next step asks but obviously only if still interested
3N: 15-17, some 5332 or 6322 or even 7222: in these partnerships, we open weak 1N in 1st and 2nd, so we don't have to worry about this meaning duplicating a strong 1N
4new suit: good texture 5+ suit, source of tricks, non-minimum.


Second:

3♣ any minimum. Responder can ask for stiff with 3♦, over which 3♥ denies a stiff, and steps beyond that
3♦ non-minimum no stiff
3♥ non minimum stiff club
3♠ non minimum stiff diamond
3N non minimum, stiff OM
3N: 15-17 no stiffs edit: this second meaning of 3N is an error,sorry...didn't proof properly
rest as above

Note that we stress revealing minimum/non-minimums before we show shortness. Limiting the value of opener's hand helps to enable responder to know when to press on or when to shut it down, often without revealing opener's shape....while this is usually at best good for an overtrick, it sometimes allows a game to make that could have been defeated when both partners are minimum and/or there are bad breaks. Also, regular J2N is awful at finding another trump suit, yet we all know that on many hands, finding the 4-4 fit, if the suit is good and breaks 3-2, will generate an extra trick compared to the 5-4 major, which is the most common fit after J2N. Edit: this only appliesd to version 1.

One of my partners has been trying to get me to learn a better method, but since we now only play casually, I haven't been persuaded yet..so I can't write it up.

[aguahombre]

As always, what you use for follow-ups to a convention depend on what you need at that point. Some people do not need to show 15-17, 5 3 3 2 hands, because they would have started differently; and now 3NT is available for a different range.

[jjbrr]

In addition to the structures Mike proposes, many people include the invitational 4-card raises into 2NT as well as the GF hands.

Now it's possible to sign off in 3M after 2NT LR+ with a 3♣ bid (any minimum hand).

The structure I play with some people includes 1M 2NT 3♣ being minimums, 3♦ being mediumish hands, and other bids showing maxes or showing voids. Various relays after 3♣ and 3♦ allow both hands to reveal shortnesses.

So we wrap a few extra meanings into 2NT and lose a little bit of cuebidding accuracy, but we get some gains in pinpointing voids/singletons and the relative strength of opener*

*This is in the context of a strong club system, which is probably outside the scope of what you're interested in, but it just means the ranges for minimum, medium, and maximum are a little more narrowly defined. My structure is probably less suitable to a 2/1 system, making Mike's suggested followups probably better.

[gwnn]

There was a very cute and simple one posted I think by jdonn a while back where 3♣ showed 6+ spades but I can't find it. in Northern Europe people play something like MikeH's second version.

[jdonn]

gwnn, on Mar 30 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

There was a very cute and simple one posted I think by jdonn a while back where 3♣ showed 6+ spades but I can't find it. in Northern Europe people play something like MikeH's second version.

Really? I do not remember this at all. I'm sure that means it was brilliant.

Jlall and I played the first 3 steps were min/mid/max strength, with shortness ask. You can certainly do more than that but we are geniuses with perfect judgment so we didn't need any more.

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Mar 30 2010, 01:29 PM, said:

Jlall and I played the first 3 steps were min/mid/max strength, with shortness ask. You can certainly do more than that but we are geniuses with perfect judgment so we didn't need any more.

Heh that was back in the day I still prefer something like that, except with max split up into unbal and bal for slightly more efficiency since partner is always going to ask over max anyways.

The only thing I feel strongly about is that you need to play 3C as any min. The whole point is to not disclose your hand type when you're minimum unless partner needs to know, so that the defense cannot defend so well.

Over 2N GF raise you have enough room to show almost literally everything, but you really want to play a system where you lose SOME efficiency/room (you have so much) in order to gain on not disclosing all the time.

[ONEferBRID]

Swedish 2NT : 4+trump limit raise or better

1M - 2NT!
??
3C! = any minimum
3D! = Extras but no shortness
3H! = Extras and Cl shortness
3S! = Extras and Diam shortness
3NT! = Extras and shortness in other Major

Opener is a minimum ( shortness is shown by the same suit bids as above )
1M - 2NT!
3C! - 3D! ( asks shortness )
3H! = Cl shortness
3S! = Diam shortness
3NT! = shortness in other Major

4C! = no shortness but cheapest courtesy cue (responder may still be interested in slam)
4D! = no shortness but cheapest courtesy cue
4H! = cheapeast cue when Sp are trump
4M = no shortness and no cue available

Responder shows only a limit raise:
1M - 2NT!
3C!( min) - 3M

[jillybean]

Thanks, my partner would like to playa similar system to Mike's #2 version so I will think about that for a while and add it when I'm in adding mode, or perhaps I should add frivolous 3nt first. Simplicity is important and both these appear to be relatively simple. ...or not

[lowerline]

Or

1♥ - 2NT (inv+ balanced 4crd raise)

3♣ = GF no shortness
3♦ = any void or 14+ any single
3♥ = MIN no shortness (5♥)
3♠ = 11-13 any single --> 3NT asks
3NT = GF 4♠6♥
4m = GF 5♥5m
4♥ = MIN no shortness (6♥)

Steven

[gwnn]

jdonn, on Mar 30 2010, 06:29 PM, said:

gwnn, on Mar 30 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

There was a very cute and simple one posted I think by jdonn a while back where 3♣ showed 6+ spades but I can't find it. in Northern Europe people play something like MikeH's second version.

Really? I do not remember this at all. I'm sure that means it was brilliant.

Jlall and I played the first 3 steps were min/mid/max strength, with shortness ask. You can certainly do more than that but we are geniuses with perfect judgment so we didn't need any more.

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ndpost&p=313304



don't want to lol anyone but I am very close now.

Also I'm pretty close to loling at everyone (with me as #1) who read the thread because nobody seems to care that MikeH uses 3NT as two different things in the same structure.

[Fluffy]

lowerline, on Mar 31 2010, 08:15 AM, said:

Or

1♥ - 2NT (inv+ balanced 4crd raise)

3♣ = GF no shortness
3♦ = any void or 14+ any single
3♥ = MIN no shortness (5♥)
3♠ = 11-13 any single --> 3NT asks
3NT = GF 4♠6♥
4m = GF 5♥5m
4♥ = MIN no shortness (6♥)

Steven

You are commiting to game with 3♠, is it worth it?, I play inv+ also but just drop all the minimums in 3♣.

[mikeh]

gwnn, on Mar 31 2010, 03:19 AM, said:

Also I'm pretty close to loling at everyone (with me as #1) who read the thread because nobody seems to care that MikeH uses 3NT as two different things in the same structure.

I do? where?
Edit:ooops...on rereading, yes..the 2nd method ahs a mistake.....3N is stiff other major, non-minimum, not 15-17 lol sorry. The balanced non-minimum, which includes all 15-17, and others, is shown via 3♦, which I mistakenly described as 5422, a la 1st version.

Further edit: the error crept in because I was typing wo notes, and wo playing that method for 6 months:( As it is, I have revised and corrected my OP after reading my notes: I apologize for any confusion.

[jillybean]

gwnn, on Mar 31 2010, 01:19 AM, said:

Also I'm pretty close to loling at everyone (with me as #1) who read the thread because nobody seems to care that MikeH uses 3NT as two different things in the same structure.

Not so funny, one is a slow 3N, the other a fast 3N perhaps.

[hanp]

I play:

3C = minimum.
... 3D = asks.
...... 3H = some singleton.
......... 3S asks and then l, m, h.
...... 3S = 6+ suit.
...... 3NT = 5332.
...... 4-level = 5422, l, m, h.
3D = extras, no shortness.
... 3H = asks.
...... responses as above.
3H, 3S, 3NT = extras, shortness l, m, h.
4C, 4D, 4H = extras with 5-card suit side l, m, h.

At my level I think it doesn't pay to play something much more complicated as this doesn't come up that often. With many strong hands I think it is better to relay with 2C if available.

Close to lolling right back at gwnn.

[aguahombre]

It seems there would be even more room to accommodate the hands where responder has only LR support for the Major, if we used the J1N instead. All hands with support would start with 1NT. A complete follow-up structure, very similar to relay responses could describe all the different 1M openings.

A semi-forcing 2NT could then be used for any hand without support and 6+ HCP.

[ONEferBRID]

Anything is better than plain vanilla Jac2NT....

gwnn brought back the following hand:

Quote

http://forums.bridge....ndpost&p=31330

♠ AJ8xx
♥ Axx
♦ Jx
♣ Jxx

♠ Q9xx
♥ Qx
♦ AKQx
♣ A10x

1S - Swedish2NT
3C! ( any minimum) - 3D! ( asks shortage, if any )
4H ( no shortage, cheapest courtesy cuebid ) - ??

Opener may have the perfect minimum: AK, AK in the majors.
Go 4NT but stop in 5S if only 2 key cards.... and hope you can still take 11 tricks before they cash 3.

[jmc]

I rather like the following structure suggested by Larry Cohen on his website.

http://www.larryco.com/BridgeArticles/Arti...px?articleID=45

jmc


MODIFIED JACOBY 2NT

After our 1-MAJ opening and 2NT response (Game-Forcing 4+-card raise):

4 of our MAJOR = the absolute worst dreck imaginable (always 5-3-3-2)
3 = any other minimum (could be 5-3-3-2, but at least some redeeming feature)
3 = non-minimum, with a side singleton or void somewhere
3 = non-minimum, any 5-4-2-2 distribution
3 = non-minimum, 6+ trumps (no singletons or voids)
3NT = non-min., 5-3-3-2 (you can use this to show a HCP range such as 18-19)
4 new suit = decent 5-card side suit (nat.--should have ace or king)

Follow-ups:

If responder ever jumps to game in the major, it is a sign-off--no further interest.

If responder still has slam interest, he can ask further as follows:

AFTER opener's 3 :

Responder bids 3 to ask, then (note the similarity to the original responses by opener):
4 of our MAJOR = 5-3-3-2 min., but not total dreck (maybe nice controls)
3 = minimum, with a side singleton or void somewhere
3 = minimum, any 5-4-2-2 distribution
3NT = minimum, 6+ trumps (no singletons or voids)
4 new suit = min., decent 5-card side suit (natural--should have ace or king)
(After opener's 3 or 3 answer to 3, next step asks, using same schedule as below)

AFTER opener's 3:

Responder bids 3 to ask, then:
Step 1=A VOID somewhere
Step 2= singleton in lowest side suit ()
Step 3 = singleton in next side suit ()
Step 4 = singleton in highest side suit (other major)
After Step 1 (VOID)
Next bid asks where and S1=, S2=, S3=other major

AFTER opener's 3:

Responder bids 3 to ask, then:
Step 1= 4 cards in lowest side suit ()
Step 2 = 4 cards in next side suit ()
Step 3 = 4 cards in highest side suit (other major)

This looks a bit complex, but there isn't too much memory. The first set of answers to 2NT must be memorized. After that, the same principle covers all the memory: Next step asks, and answers are "up-the-line."

INTERFERENCE:

As stated above, this convention is never on if they interfere after our 1MAJ opening. However, we do need to cope if they interfere after the 2NT response:

Opener's double = Shortness in suit doubled
Opener's new suits = natural or a control
3NT = Balanced Maximum (Ace or King in their suit)
Opener's Pass = Nothing special--flat hand, could be 5x3x2 awful after which, responder's X=penalty
Opener's jump to 4M = dead minimum, but 6x3x2
If they double Asks or re-asks : XX = business, Pass=S1, etc.
If they bid after Ask or re-ask : X=Penalty, Pass=S1, etc. (except when double = short as above)

Like any new convention, this can't be taken lightly. Practice and study are required. I am not big on conventions, but this one is worth the effort for a serious partnership. Not only does it provide more accuracy, but the biggest payoff is in concealment. Most times, opener will have a minimum (12 points are statistically more likely than 15 or 19). When opener bids 3 to announce a minimum, most times responder will no longer be interested in slam. He will simply jump to sign-off in game. Meanwhile, you have not given away opener's shape to the opponents. It is too easy to lead and defend against standard Jacoby 2NT, when you are told opener has a singleton. It is much better to keep this information concealed on most deals.

[jillybean]

We have decided to play this version.

1M:2N
3♣ min with shortage, 3♦ asks
3♦ any hand, no shortage
3♥ extra's ♣ shortage
3♠ extra's ♦ shortage
3N extra's OM shortage

So, in this auction;
1M:2N
3♦:3x (cue)
3N can be frivilous, showing no slam interest, while not completely shutting partner out.

But not after;
1M:2N
3♣:3♦
3N which is now showing ♦ shortage.

I had better do some study and practise, these are not sequences I would want to get muddled up.

[ONEferBRID]

jillybean, on Apr 2 2010, 11:33 AM, said:

We have decided to play this version.

1M:2N
3♣ min with shortage, 3♦ asks
3♦ any hand, no shortage
3♥ extra's  ♣ shortage
3♠ extra's  ♦ shortage
3N extra's  OM shortage

So, in this auction;
1M:2N
3♦:3x (cue)
3N can be frivilous, showing no slam interest, while not completely shutting partner out.

But not after;
1M:2N
3♣:3♦
3N which is now showing ♦ shortage.

I had better do some study and practise, these are not sequences I would want to get muddled up. 

I have a suggestion for memory sake:
Use the SAME suit bids for shortage in the "minimum" case as in the "extras" case:

1M:2N
3♣:3♦ ( asks )
3♥ min, ♣ shortage
3♠ min, ♦ shortage
3N min, oM shortage

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and I really like your idea for:
1M - 2NT!
3D! = ANY hand w/NO shortage

That way I can use the 4-level bids to show a 2nd 5 card suit:
1M - 2NT!
4C/4D etc = extras and 2nd 5 cd suit ( ergo shortage elsewhere)

and for a minimum hand:
1M - 2NT!
3C! - 3D!
4C/4D etc = minimum and 2nd 5 cd suit ( ergo shortage elsewhere )