[jdonn]

Yay for resulting! Just 1400 after it turns out to be surprisingly easy to draw declarer's trumps?

[Bbradley62]

billw55, on Mar 30 2010, 03:47 PM, said:

I suspect it is making, not because of trump quality, but merely because the hand is in the forum ;)

No, the hand is in the forum because I wanted to be sure that other people agreed that 3♣ was a weird bid before I complained about it.

[mohitz]

jdonn, on Mar 31 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

Yay for resulting! Just 1400 after it turns out to be surprisingly easy to draw declarer's trumps?

Is this one of your sarcastic remarks because not even me would play this in 1DX..

EDIT: Also, isn't it 1100?

This post has been edited by mohitz: 2010-March-31, 10:17

[Bbradley62]

The most amusing alternate auction was:
P-P-1♣-P
1♥-P-2♥-P
P-3♦-Dble-all pass

[jdonn]

mohitz, on Mar 31 2010, 11:14 AM, said:

jdonn, on Mar 31 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

Yay for resulting! Just 1400 after it turns out to be surprisingly easy to draw declarer's trumps?

Is this one of your sarcastic remarks because not even me would play this in 1DX..

EDIT: Also, isn't it 1100?

I think north has an automatic bid but he did pass. I think south has an automatic pass. But yes it's a mere 1100.

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Mar 31 2010, 11:42 AM, said:

I think south has an automatic pass.

That is really terrible then! AQ32 and good majors?!?!

Edit: Willing to do our std bet of ask 5 experts on this one (south's action after 1D X P P ?) since we're obv not gonna agree and are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

[jdonn]

What should he do? Redouble and partner might bid 2♣, or 1♥ with equal length in the majors? Bid 1♠ on Jxxx? Actually you're wrong maybe I could be convinced but I really don't see how he could run effectively even if he wanted to!

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Mar 31 2010, 11:51 AM, said:

What should he do? Redouble and partner might bid 2♣, or 1♥ with equal length in the majors? Bid 1♠ on Jxxx? Actually you're wrong maybe I could be convinced but I really don't see how he could run effectively even if he wanted to!

Yeah I think he should XX, not worried at all about a 2C bid, if partner bids that they have at least 5 and usually 6 since I can often be 4441, (34)42, 4432. I could have other shapes too of course but running to clubs partner has to be very careful, and he almost always has a 4 card major to run to given that he presumably has short diamonds (for instance if he has 2 diamonds then he is 3325 or has 6 clubs or a 4 card major). If he has more than 2 diamonds we should probably pass but that is pretty unlikely, and even if he does he will often have a 4 card major still.

If he's 4-4 in the majors he will have to completely guess what to do if he gets Xed in 1H, at least he usually has better spades than hearts though so he'll probably go right, and even if he doesn't they won't always be able to X 1H in which case we're ok, and even if worst case scenario happens and he sits it out in 1H X with 4-4 I feel way happier with that than playing 1D X on AQ32 in a likely 4-1 or 4-2 with turmps breaking badly and a trump lead coming!

I think the fact that we cannot play the right major opposite 4-4 always is a very secondary concern to the impending disaster of playing in 1D X.

Think about the generally tight requirements people have to pass 1D X on an auction like this, most have 5 very good or 6, if you are really aggro you might pass with only 5 semi-good here, but the 3-2 and a trump lead through is just superrr scary that they're going to pull trumps and claim.

Often we have an out, and often we don't even get doubled as long as we run to SOMETHING. It's not unlikely at all to me that we have some fit and won't get smacked at the 1 level, or even that they won't smack us in a 7 card fit a lot of the time. But even if they do at least we're in the game and not about to go for an auto 500 or worse.

DRG used to have a rule "never pass after 1m X p p" and I used to LOL at it but it's pretty much true.

[jdonn]

3334? Or if they are 0-5, 3343?... I mean obv we can't take anything about running from the original hand since north has a 1♥ bid.

[Bbradley62]

So, can either of you tell us how the auction would go if your clones were sitting in all four seats?

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Mar 31 2010, 12:09 PM, said:

3334? Or if they are 0-5, 3343?... I mean obv we can't take anything about running from the original hand since north has a 1♥ bid.

Obv if they have 4 diamonds running sucks, generally they are like what 1 % in this auction to have 4 diamonds though...I think that's the point we are likely in a terrible fit when RHO has 5+ diamonds, and LHO and partner have unknown amounts (but LHO likely only 0-2).

If partner is 3334 running will also probably not be great but partner will bid 1H and then go from there, maybe they won't be able to double us in hearts or spades. Again, partner having 3 diamonds is not that likely, and even when he does he usually has a 4 card major. 3334 is really a worst case scenario that I think you would agree doesn't happen very often at all, but obviously when it does running is going to work poorly.

I also don't know why you keep insisting partner has an obv 1H bid, he has nothing and they Xed, I don't see the point in making a free bid with his hand. Bidding with crappy submin hands over a X that you would have bid with without the X in order to keep the auction open is not a normal thing to do.

[Jlall]

Bbradley62, on Mar 31 2010, 12:13 PM, said:

So, can either of you tell us how the auction would go if your clones were sitting in all four seats?

I'd probably bid 1D X p p XX p 1H 2C p p p.

1D p 1H p 1S p p p is possible.

1D X p 2C p p p is a possible auction.

1D X 1H 2C X p 2H p p p is a possible auction.

Going for 1100 on a hand like this in 1D for unknown reasons seems pretty silly to me, I don't understand why we would risk that, I would always expect them to be right when they passed 1D X and I had AQ32 and a min.

edit: there are other possible reasonable auctions of course, the key decisions are basically whether or not to make a t/o X (I would), whether to bid 1H over it (I wouldn't), whether or not to pass the double (I would), whether or not to run (I wouldn't have thought this was a decision but obv I would..don't like to go for 1100 on hands like this!), whether or not east should keep going for penalties against 1H or just bid clubs now (I would just bid 2C)... there are more things in the decision trees if you do different stuff also, it's too complicated.

[fred]

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

DRG used to have a rule "never pass after 1m X p p" and I used to LOL at it but it's pretty much true.

I agree completely with the general sentiment - if the opponents want to DBL you at the 1-level, they are usually right.

Of course "rule" and "never" are overbids. This is a good thing for otherwise I would have to change Fred's Rule of 2 to Fred's Rule of 3

I think South has a much easier problem after 1D-DBL-P-P-? (he should RDBL) than East has over 1D-DBL-P-?.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Ok maybe I'm just missing the boat on south since I think east's problem is pretty easy! Thanks team.

[Free]

jdonn, on Mar 31 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

Yay for resulting! Just 1400 after it turns out to be surprisingly easy to draw declarer's trumps?

Lol @ Hog

North shouldn't pass imo, so it's a ridiculous example of what's best...

[gwnn]

with gwnn in all seats it would be

1♦-x-1♥-2♣
x-p-2♥-end (x from opener=support)

interesting hand, to be honest I wouldn't have thought about running from S after 1♦-x-p-p but this hand is pretty compelling.