[Ant590]

4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT

In principle, is this to play or a queen ask? Does the preceding sequence matter?

[Trinidad]

Ant590, on Mar 27 2010, 12:07 PM, said:

4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT

In principle, is this to play or a queen ask? Does the preceding sequence matter?

I assume you mean:

Diamonds are trump, 4♥ asked, 4♠ replied.

With my partner I have agreed that 4NT is to play. 5♣ asks for the queen since there is enough room for that when using kickback. The preceding sequence doesn't matter. But you can agree whatever you want.

So, here we see another advantage and another drawback to kickback. The advantage: You can stop in 4NT. The drawback: You can have a misunderstanding about that.

Rik

[paulg]

Queen ask for me, mainly because I would not be using kickback unless the 5-level was safe.

[dake50]

What was not available as advance Q in previous auction? Ie some forces that will later be cleared up as having support. What plan for showing this hand's value was NOT chosen?

[aguahombre]

In kickback, or Minorwood auctions, most people use a 4NT response as part of the answer scheme, but not part of the follow-up questioning. This leaves the ability to get out in 4NT if the number of Keys is not adequate for slam.

[nigel_k]

I would only consider it in this precise sequence: 4♥-4♠-4NT (with diamonds as trumps) because you have 5♣ as a queen ask. Even then you have to remember it and I have a feeling I might reflexively bid 4NT intending to ask for the queen if it came up. Also it is not completely costless because after the queen ask with 5♣ instead of 4NT you are a step higher if you want to ask for specific kings.

If it was 4♦-4♠-4NT (with clubs as trumps) I wouldn't want to give up the queen ask just to be able to play 4NT instead of 5♣ but it could work sometimes at matchpoints.

[aguahombre]

nigel_k, on Mar 27 2010, 02:56 PM, said:

it is not completely costless because after the queen ask with 5♣ instead of 4NT you are a step higher if you want to ask for specific kings.

I don't remember asking for the trump queen, getting a negative reply --and then asking for kings; because I can't remember asking for kings, specific or otherwise, without having all the primary controls. If the hand ever came up that I would want to do that, I would probably question my earlier bids.

A positive answer to the queen ask includes showing a specific King at the same time.

[fromageGB]

nigel_k, on Mar 27 2010, 09:56 PM, said:

Also it is not completely costless because after the queen ask with 5♣ instead of 4NT you are a step higher if you want to ask for specific kings.

My partnerships all play Kickback, and for me this is always the queen ask.

I agree with Nigel that there is room in this particular auction for it to be natural, and similarly fear the possible consequences. However, I think it is costless, but maybe that depends on your methods. Why are you asking for the queen? It must be because if partner has it, you will not sign off in 5♦ but will go on to ask for kings, committing to the 6 level. Otherwise you would not ask, but simply bid 5♦. Therefore the response to the queen ask is to sign off in 5♦ without the queen, but with it you bid higher with your normal king response. Nothing lost.

My king ask is 5 of the asking suit (ie 5♥ with diamonds agreed) and the responses are to bid the grand with all 3, bid the minor slam with 0, and with 1 or 2 bid the cheapest. The king of the asking suit is shown by bidding NT. Therefore there is always room to find every king. (If partner's cheapest king is not the one you wanted, you bid the wanted suit for him to bid the grand if he has that as a second king, but the small slam if not.)

In fact there is a minor gain if the answer to the queen ask is the king response if the queen is held. If 5♥ asked for kings, 5NT would deny the king of spades and show the king of hearts. But if 5♣ asked for the queen of trumps, teller with the queen would bid 5♥ to show the heart queen. What you have gained is the loss of the need to remember that NT shows the king of the asking suit!

[fromageGB]

I see that aquahombre types quicker than I do !

[fromageGB]

aguahombre, on Mar 27 2010, 10:23 PM, said:

I don't remember asking for the trump queen, getting a negative reply --and then asking for kings; because I can't remember asking for kings, specific or otherwise, without having all the primary controls. If the hand ever came up that I would want to do that, I would probably question my earlier bids.

Actuall you have had such a hand, I'm sure, a hand with a couple of undisclosed extra length, so with a 10+ card fit you don't need to bother about the queen. But of course you would then just make the king ask and not bother to ask for the queen.

[Jlall]

Big believer in this being an ask, just give up on playing 4N in a keycard auction. It is so rare, it's way better to save space for your queen ask/king ask

[Trinidad]

Jlall, on Mar 28 2010, 01:40 AM, said:

Big believer in this being an ask, just give up on playing 4N in a keycard auction. It is so rare, it's way better to save space for your queen ask/king ask

What space are you effectively losing? We are talking about 1 single situation only: Diamonds are trump and the teller has made the cheapest response to the keycard ask: 4♠. The fact that he made the cheapest response gives you the extra bid. Under most circumstances (i.e. when another cuit is trump) this extra bid is useless, but specifically when diamonds are trump it gives you the possibility to get out in the highest paying contract at the lowest possible level.

All of this is a little abstract, so let's make it a little clearer: Diamonds are trump. You ask with 4♥. Assume partner responds 4NT. Now, you can do all the asking you want with 5♣ (♦Q with a run on for specific kings) or 5♥ (specific kings).

Now assume that partner responds 4♠. You can still do all the asking you want with 5♣ and 5♥. This leaves the 4NT bid effectively idle. You can use it as a sign off, just like when clubs are trump and the response is 4♥. It means that you can make a little more aggressive slam try in diamonds while you will still be able to revert to NT. This seems important to me specifically at MPs. The only thing that you lose is a 6♣ "Last train ask" for a grand slam. I think it is more important to be able to make more aggressive tries for a small slam than to be able to make a last train ask for a grand.

Rik