[Stephen Tu]

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While ago somebody made a study about it. The conclusion of it is, and my personal experience is in line with it, that upside down attitude is clearly superior, but upside down count is about equally good as the standard.

I think upside-down count is slightly better than std. It's the "save high card from doubleton" thing, you can't afford to play it as often as you can the middle from 3. That's the reason "std" count is reversed in the trump suit, with upside-down count you just do this all the time!

Upside down attitude does allow a clearer signal in more cases since you get to save spot cards. The cases Art mentions where std is superior I wouldn't call "random", they are specific situations like against notrump where dummy doesn't have finesseable honors, or when partner leads from an honor sequence & dummy has low cards.

As for present count situations, discarding from a suit that you/partner led previous round, I think the idea behind std present count is just so that you are playing high from doubleton which is frequently necessary for unblocking purposes.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Mar 25 2010, 07:24 PM, said:

I've never heard of this. What is the small theoretical advantage? That you more often don't have to waste a high card to signal for any suit?

Yes. Or, looking at it another way, you can signal for any suit using a low card. In fact, this applies only if you have a choice of which suit to signal with, so only if you're discarding. I imagine that makes the advantage rather smaller than for UDCA, so maybe my surprise is unwarranted.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-March-25, 13:38

[helene_t]

Revolving discards as Andy describes it is quite popular here in Lancaster, and also where I played in the Netherlands. That is among ordinary club players, it is.

[Siegmund]

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but hardly anyone prefers revolving signals* to standard suit preference, even though that too has a small theoretical advantage.

It is a little odd that they don't get much intention for follow-suit suit preference signals.

Among those who play Lavinthal discards its close enough to 50-50 whether they play revolving or absolute-rank discards that you have to ask before you agree to play it. Or take the sensible approach and refuse to play them outright, of course.

[Mbodell]

I play all of UDCA, standard, and upside down attitude (when following suit) but standard count and standard discard.

I don't strongly care but I think standard discards are better (because most often I want to discard from a suit I don't want, and waste as small a spot as possible, and have partner be smart enough to figure out the rest) and upside down attitude following suit are also better (again spot preservation).

[barryallen]

gnasher, on Mar 25 2010, 02:37 PM, said:

jdonn, on Mar 25 2010, 07:24 PM, said:

I've never heard of this. What is the small theoretical advantage? That you more often don't have to waste a high card to signal for any suit?

Yes. Or, looking at it another way, you can signal for any suit using a low card. In fact, this applies only if you have a choice of which suit to signal with, so only if you're discarding. I imagine that makes the advantage rather smaller than for UDCA, so maybe my surprise is unwarranted.

I would imagine the advantage would be more? You now have a high and a low card to signal the same thing. Sometimes avoiding a possibly valuable high card or baring an honour with a low card. Additionally two discards from a long suit can achieve the same guidance.

What really intrigues me is especially on first lead, do players give attitude or count. I have always followed attitude /switch on first lead dependent upon dummy. Interested in those that just use count because I have seen successful players use it in the past. Not talking about an attitude / count signal dependent upon the card led, but count irrespective of the card led.

[akhare]

gnasher, on Mar 25 2010, 01:20 PM, said:

One thing that I find curious: lots of people prefer UDCA to standard because of a small theoretical advantage, but hardly anyone prefers revolving signals* to standard suit preference, even though that too has a small theoretical advantage.

* Revolving = low card signals for the next lower suit in rotation; high card signals for the next higher suit in rotation.

Aren't revolving discards very similar to Lavinthal?

I have played them in the same manner as described, with the extension that the discard of the 5, 6, 7 was "neutral" and carried no message, except that playing 5 -7 up the line in the same suit was mildly encouraging..

[mike777]

Thank you all for taking the time to post.

Your replies are thoughtful.

With that said still not sure what UDCA...expert is.


I played often UDCA back in 87 and discussed udca back in 71 but I understand theory moves on......

I guess I was looking for basic answers to questions such as trick one...trick two....first discard...etc...

I have not played UDCA for years.