[mich-b]

Does anybody have a good rule when 5NT is "pick a slam" , and when it is a GSF asking about trump honours.
I am looking for a rule that cannot be misunderstood , or lead to misunderstandings , since a misunderstanding in this area can be extremely costly.
Maybe you have different rules for constructive bidding and competitive bidding?

For example what is (3♥) - 3♠ - (4♥) - 5NT for you?
Would your rule cover that ?

[obscurans]

I'm no serious bidding theorist, but I'd say without a known fit and over interference 5NT should be "pick a slam". There's still 5♠ free for a trump honor ask, although I think its usual meaning is bid slam with 2 and grand with 3. Maybe include the 5-level cuebid as 1-or-2 ask?

[effervesce]

obscurans, on Mar 22 2010, 03:06 AM, said:

I'm no serious bidding theorist, but I'd say without a known fit and over interference 5NT should be "pick a slam". There's still 5♠ free for a trump honor ask, although I think its usual meaning is bid slam with 2 and grand with 3. Maybe include the 5-level cuebid as 1-or-2 ask?

I would have thought it's common to play 5♠ on this auction to ask for a heart control.

[twcho]

If 4NT is available for keycard, jump to 5NT should always be pick a slam or else why don't the partner use 4NT to ask for keycards instead of 5NT.

[aguahombre]

twcho, on Mar 22 2010, 02:28 AM, said:

If 4NT is available for keycard, jump to 5NT should always be pick a slam or else why don't the partner use 4NT to ask for keycards instead of 5NT.

two voids?

[gnasher]

twcho, on Mar 22 2010, 09:28 AM, said:

If 4NT is available for keycard, jump to 5NT should always be pick a slam or else why don't the partner use 4NT to ask for keycards instead of 5NT.

Because he wants to be able to find a grand slam with Axxxxx opposite Kxxx.

Or because he has a void himself, and doesn't have enough space to find out hat he wants to know with exclusion. eg with spades as trumps, with the bidding at 4♠.

[Fluffy]

I don't play pick a slam, I wonder how often is this convention used on real bridge, I hardly ever find a hand where I wish I played it.

On the other hand I haven't used GSF more than twice a year either


Me prefered method is to play 5NT is regular blackwood if bid without a jump, GSF otherwise

[jjbrr]

5nt is always pick a slam.

Inside joke, sorry. No serious answer.

[kfay]

Fluffy, on Mar 22 2010, 08:05 AM, said:

I don't play pick a slam, I wonder how often is this convention used on real bridge, I hardly ever find a hand where I wish I played it.

On the other hand I haven't used GSF more than twice a year either


Me prefered method is to play 5NT is regular blackwood if bid without a jump, GSF otherwise

Comes up quite often in the United States. Maybe Spanish hands are easier?

[jdonn]

I have never wanted to use 5NT as GSF at the table, ever. I frequently use 5NT as pick a slam, maybe about 2-3 times in the average tournament. It is one of the most useful agreements I have. In fact frankly I think it's easier to bid slams without blackwood than without pick-a-slam. I wonder why such different bridge hands seem to be dealt in Spain.

My rule is it's only GSF if there is no way it could be anything else. In other words if you have to wonder about the question "what is 5NT" then it's not GSF.

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Mar 22 2010, 10:33 AM, said:

I frequently use 5NT as pick a slam, maybe about 2-3 times in the average tournament. It is one of the most useful agreements I have. In fact frankly I think it's easier to bid slams without blackwood than without pick-a-slam. I wonder why such different bridge hands seem to be dealt in Spain.

Yep, except perhaps closer to 1-2 times per tourney would be my guess --compared to maybe 1-2 times per year with GSF if I were playing more frequently.

But, perhaps a better guide than "when it can't be anything else" would be useful.
I can understand that rule in unimpeded auctions, where we have been able to control the bidding space. In competitive situations, maybe some clarification of the rule would be helpful.

Not offering, requesting.

[jdonn]

Perhaps I play 1.5 times as many boards in the average tournament as you do. Thank you for clarifying this crucial point, overriding my estimate based on boards I actually play with your estimate based on what you think would happen on boards you don't actually play, so I could note we are actually in agreement.

[Siegmund]

My experience is wildly at variance with aqua, kfay, and jdonn's.

I can't, in all honesty, remember the last time I used 5NT pick-a-slam with my regular partner, or wished I had it available playing with someone else. We've never bothered to formulate a rule about when it applies. Somewhere between "when any other meaning for 5NT would be completely illogical" and "anytime we haven't agreed on trump yet and it's not a NT raise". The latter might be a reasonable simple rule to adopt.

GSF on the other hand I use very routinely (most recently last Friday.) This frequency difference is directly tied to slam-exploration style. RKC addicts will rarely feel the need for GSF since they use RKC to ask for trump honours all the time. Those who rely heavily on cuebidding at both the 4- and 5-levels are more likely to reach the 5M level already knowing about kings but not knowing about trump honors.

[jdonn]

For what it's worth, my meaning for 5NT in cuebidding auctions where we have a clear trump suit is along the lines of "I have nothing to cuebid but I'm interested in cooperating with you." I had this hand in Reno:

KJT9x x KQJxx xx

1♠ 2♣
2♦ 3♦
4♦ 4♥
5♦ 5♥

I showed my 5-5 and denied interest over 4♥. Since 4♠ the round before would have been an offer to play on a good 5 card suit I couldn't bid 5♠ this round as it would show the ace. 5NT to say I have a good hand for the grand in context was perfect and allowed partner to bid a good 7♦ that many missed (he had a hand that could have bid keycard earlier but anyway chose not to, and I feel it's a moot point anyway.)

GSF is backwards in cuebidding auctions. If you have something to cuebid then do that. If you don't but you still are worth cooperating then you assuredly have good trumps and thus don't need to ask partner for them.

[bluecalm]

In my opinion good rule is:
-if we have agreed suit but we didn't bid blackwood at 4NT level then it's blackwood
-if we have bid 4NT blackwood now 5NT is some kind of follow up question (king ask, general invite etc.)
-otherwise it's pick a slam

I think GSF isn't useful at all. I am yet to play a hand which couldn't be bid in other way especially if you play ERKCB.

[mikegill]

I tend to use Jeff Roman's rule:

Unless every bridge player in the state in which you are currently located and the caddies all know what trumps are, then it's pick-a-slam.

[mich-b]

mikegill, on Mar 22 2010, 02:51 PM, said:

I tend to use Jeff Roman's rule:

Unless every bridge player in the state in which you are currently located and the caddies all know what trumps are, then it's pick-a-slam.

A question to those who agree with the above and belong strongly to the camp of "almost always 5NT is pick a slam" :
Do you believe GSF is not important because you play Exclusion BW? Would your opinion change if you did not play Exclusion?

And also , in my original example of
(3♥) - 3♠ - (4♥) - 5NT ,
I understand this would mean "pick a slam" for you ? (jdonn and others)
(Do the caddies know that ♠s are trumps? )

I repeat this example , because here the 5NT bidder does not have available exclusion BW (Surely 5♥ is not ERKCB), and probably not regular BW as well. So , you still feel that GSF is not needed ?

(Not arguing either way, just trying to get a better feel for your views..)

[mikegill]

I feel like specific sequences like this are really not that important to discuss except in a very serious partnership. Whichever meaning you assign to 5NT here is almost never going to come up. At the table yes, I would take this as choice of slams, ideally something like 2155 or maybe even more minor suit cards. For it to be GSF I would want it to be like 1♠ p 2NT(Jacoby) 4♥ 5NT for example.

I have only discussed these types of sequences as far as: 5 of their suit is a slam try with a control and 5 of our suit is a slam try without a control whenever that seems like a reasonable interpretation. Other things (like the meaning of 4NT and 5NT) are covered by rules that apply to many situations so that memory load can be kept to a minimum. It's better to know what your bids mean for sure even if you wish they meant something different than to not be sure what they mean.

To answer your other question, yes, having exclusion means that 5NT becomes somewhat more unnecessary as GSF, but again we're talking about hands which come up so rarely that it almost doesn't matter what you're playing.