[nigel_k]

kfay, on Mar 21 2010, 03:49 AM, said:

Everyone is aware that for an overcall both your upper and lower bounds are much lower than an opener, right?

K, just checking.

Not sure exactly what you are suggesting, but over an opener you can bid 1NT forcing and give preference with 3 cards and a weak hand. Over an overcall you can cue bid with 3 card support and a good hand. So I think the two situations are not analagous.

Suppose you have agreed opening bids are 11-20 and overcalls are 8-17. I still think with three card support you should raise the opening bid with 7-10 and raise the overcall with 6-9. Because you have different ways of dealing with hands outside the range.

I agree with downgrading this to a pass though. I'll probably have to bid 2♥ later so could do it immediately to try and shut them out but partner will over compete quite often as our hand is so poor. And I think it will be quite hard to shut them out of spades even if I raise and I don't mind if they play three of a minor.

[peachy]

Rob F, on Mar 22 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

I polled a few experts I knew at Reno and they were strongly in the pass camp. One suggested that his panel of experts would be unanimous for pass, which might not be true but seemed to suggest it wasn't a "wtp" raise.

At the table, I raised and indeed this resulted in a plus turning into a minus. My raise encouraged partner to balance 3♥ over their balance of 3♦, both of which were off one.

(1♦)-1♥-(P)-2♥
(P) - P - (3♦) - P
(P) - 3♥ AP

At my table 3DX was off two, but I don't remember whether due to misplay by them or genius by my partner (I don't recall brilliancy on my part; and I would remember if there was cuz its rare )

[gnasher]

Rob F, on Mar 22 2010, 10:41 PM, said:

At the table, I raised and indeed this resulted in a plus turning into a minus. My raise encouraged partner to balance 3♥ over their balance of 3♦, both of which were off one.

(1♦)-1♥-(P)-2♥
(P) - P - (3♦) - P
(P) - 3♥ AP

What was partner's hand?

[gwnn]

well looks like it was hard to get a + on this deal anyway methinks?

[aguahombre]

2H. Context: overcalls are around 10+. Law bids follow in competitive auctions. If partner had 6 hearts and we got a bad result for 3H, oh well. If pard had the same overcall she started with and chose to bid again, hmmmm.

[kfay]

gnasher, on Mar 22 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

Rob F, on Mar 22 2010, 10:41 PM, said:

At the table, I raised and indeed this resulted in a plus turning into a minus.  My raise encouraged partner to balance 3♥ over their balance of 3♦, both of which were off one.

(1♦)-1♥-(P)-2♥
(P) - P - (3♦) - P
(P) - 3♥ AP

What was partner's hand?

lol

[kfay]

nigel_k, on Mar 22 2010, 05:34 PM, said:

kfay, on Mar 21 2010, 03:49 AM, said:

Everyone is aware that for an overcall both your upper and lower bounds are much lower than an opener, right?

K, just checking.

Not sure exactly what you are suggesting

I'm "suggesting" that since his ranger is lower... the range you need to respond is higher!!!!

Not saying way way higher, just ever-so-slightly. Clearly we have a cue-raise to distinguish between good raises and bad raises, which is why I think it's good to use them slightly liberally. But isn't this a minimum response to a 1♥ OPENER?! I really don't see why everyone is going bananas. Often light responses to openers attempt to steal, but they already have a lot of info here! Partner making any other bid here after I raise is something I do NOT want to see, and doesn't 2♥ encourage that? Who here would say that raising does not encourage more bidding, in a sense?

The reasons for bidding are just not as compelling as the reasons for pass.

[the hog]

Rob F, on Mar 23 2010, 04:41 AM, said:

I polled a few experts I knew at Reno and they were strongly in the pass camp. One suggested that his panel of experts would be unanimous for pass, which might not be true but seemed to suggest it wasn't a "wtp" raise.

At the table, I raised and indeed this resulted in a plus turning into a minus. My raise encouraged partner to balance 3♥ over their balance of 3♦, both of which were off one.

(1♦)-1♥-(P)-2♥
(P) - P - (3♦) - P
(P) - 3♥ AP

Did partner have his bid? A good 6 card H suit?

[fred]

Rob F, on Mar 22 2010, 09:41 PM, said:

I polled a few experts I knew at Reno and they were strongly in the pass camp.  One suggested that his panel of experts would be unanimous for pass, which might not be true but seemed to suggest it wasn't a "wtp" raise.

FWIW I am also strongly in the Pass camp and I also think most of the top players in the USA would agree.

This hand has a lot of negatives in terms of bidding 2H:

- xxx of trumps (a serious red flag)
- minimal high card values
- high card values may be completely worthless on offense, but may well be useful on defense
- poor distribution
- you are vulnerable
- you are playing matchpoints (which increases the chances that partner will over-compete and also increases the chances that you will get doubled)
- if you Pass the auction is not over

Meanwhile, for me, finding a single good thing to say about this hand would be difficult.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[peachy]

dake50, on Mar 21 2010, 09:19 AM, said:

Was 1D a catchall so my D-QJ might pull some weight? Then 2H appeals.
1D promises 3+good, Pass appeals.

Now I see suggested 1S psych, that appeals. Though psych seldom enters my mind.

That psych would have burned you to crisp.

[Jlall]

fred, on Mar 22 2010, 08:45 PM, said:

FWIW I am also strongly in the Pass camp and I also think most of the top players in the USA would agree.

I would pass but expected to be in a fairly significant minority (not that I'm saying you're wrong). Agree with all of your reasons for passing and that is why I would pass, with special emphasis on being red at MP and possibly going for 200 even undoubled.

I think that raising has upside though, especially with xx spades, it seems likely that we can push them up a level on momentum by raising sometimes which is a pretty big gain. I don't think this is worth the risk though.

[bid_em_up]

fred, on Mar 22 2010, 08:45 PM, said:

Meanwhile, for me, finding a single good thing to say about this hand would be difficult.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

It has 13 cards. That's always a good thing.

[the hog]

Still like to know on what parther's 3H bid was based. Anyone got the hand?

[goobers]

If memory serves, it was xxxx AKJxx x Axx.

I held the advancing hand and also raised, thinking to myself "I shouldn't be raising."

[peachy]

goobers, on Mar 24 2010, 03:26 PM, said:

If memory serves, it was xxxx AKJxx x Axx.

I held the advancing hand and also raised, thinking to myself "I shouldn't be raising."

I still don't have the hand record but overcaller has a better hand, something in spades also IIRC. Dummy had 109xx diamonds if this helps anybody find the record or recall the hands.

[quiddity]

Scoring: MP

---

[quiddity]

BTW, the pass by east in the OP was pretty sick (if that's actually what happened). I'm pretty sure I held that hand and raised diamonds immediately.

[jonottawa]

I'm confused, am I 2-3-4-4 or 3-3-4-3? If the former, I'm a bidder, if the latter, I pass.

I'll bid with this field and try to outplay them. I'd need a larger expected value than this to deviate this early in the hand.

[gwnn]

I agree that it's a pass with 3343 but 2H with the 2344 but not because I want to bid with the field, but because I think it's the right thing to do. I'd do it in all fields and all circumstances. Maybe raise on the 4x3 after a few beers.

[goobers]

Advancer's hand should be 2=3=4=4... I don't have the hand records, but I'm pretty sure we had

T9xx AKJxx x Axx
opp
xx xxx QJxx Kxxx