[dbsboy]

Scoring: IMP

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Hi all, here is a problem that my partner and I had an argument on. We play 2/1.

The auction went with North as dealer: 1♦ - (1♥) - 1♠ - (2♠) - 3♠ - (4♥) - 4♠ - (P) - P - (X)

which got down 3, a disastrous result.

In the post-mortem analysis, I think that

1) North was not strong enough to bid 3♠, and should double 2♠, but my partner thinks that X was unclear (supportive? strength?) Extra Q: what should the double be?

He thinks that

2) I should pass 4♥ since I was not sure whether 4♥ makes or not, and since I did not have stuff more than I had promised, I should not commit suicide and bid 4♠.

I then suggests

3) AKXX X AKXXX XXX is a perfect example hand for 3♠ (which he agrees with me) but then I should pass with my given hand. He then added that given the failure of me doubling 4♥, he would bid 4♠ over 4♥

Pls assign the blame and feel free to comment on the auction.

Thank you

[jdonn]

4♠ on the worst trumps possible and Q Q Q in the other suits? Sorry this is all your fault.

And AKxx x AKxxx xxx opposite 5+ spades and with opponents bidding hearts should bid 4♠ allllllll dayyyyyyyy.

[CSGibson]

South.

[Tola18]

I agree, 4sp was really bad... I can understand 1sp. Although many cautious oldtimers would pass. But you must before you bid 4sp knownyou had already stretched. True, pards 3sp strenghed up your hand. But it doesnt mean anything will go. It would only mean you go down only 1, may even make if def slips...


Your pards reasoning OK. 3sp a liitle streched, but reasonable.
In contested auction you must stretch sometimes a little to show support.
He saw also 54 trump.


All in all. In white againt red south bidding was good. But not otherwise...

[dicklont]

In competitive bidding you should stretch with a fit.
So 3♠ just shows an opening with 4 spades, or a little extra with 3 spades.

South has fullfilled his obligation by showing the spades and has no reason to do anything after that.

Double on 2♠ shows A or K in my book.

[gwnn]

I like your partner's reasoning a lot, double of 2S is indeed quite ambiguous (but I think I play it as 3 card raise) and 3S is quite clear in meaning. Sorry I don't like your bidding at all, you have absolutely nothing left to spare, no shortness no length, no concentration of values, no values in trumps.

@Tola18 with your signature how can you not find a nice cat picture for your avatar?

[jjbrr]

ya 4♠ is crazy.

[peachy]

4S was really bad. All other calls were fine.

[655321]

Yes.

1♠ was clear, passing would have been bad.
3♠ was clear, passing would have been bad.
4♠ was awful, even w/r 4♠ would be awful on such a balanced hand with most of your points outside your suits.

[aguahombre]

agree with everyone, except tola. I became an old-timer by being cautious
But not bidding 1S is beyond cautious, it is silly --as was the 4S push.

[Bbradley62]

While I certainly agree that South can't pass over 1♥, 3♠ is right, and 4♠ is horrible: the cautious old-timer doesn't pass over 1♥, but he's afraid to bid 1♠ so he makes a negative double.

[dbsboy]

Thank you for all the kind responses. I am weak at bidding (especially competitive), must learn from this since it seems to be a unanimous wtp.

I have a few follow up questions:

1) Assume we have the same auction, should opener bid 3♠ whenever he has 4 card ♠ support?

2) Is it in competition, one can stretch a bit more when a fit is found? (e.g. normal 2♠ in unobstructed bidding can bid 3♠, and 3♠ hand can bid 4♠ in compeition?)

3) If the bidding is uninterrupted, is my hand (XXXXX QX QXXX QX) good enough to bid game over 1♦-1♠-3♠?

Feel free to answer, I am so eager to play better bridge!

[karlson]

1. Probably worst hands with 4 card support should double, but there's no clearcut answer.

2. Yes, especially if the alternative is not showing support at all. e.g. if the bidding had gone 1♦-(1♥)-1♠-(2♥), then opener can still bid 2♠ with most minimum four card raises (though you might want to bid 3♠ somewhat lighter than you did before if you have a singleton heart or otherwise shapely hand). The idea is not to add a level to all your bids just because there is now competition, but to try very hard not to bury your fit. Sometimes if the level is too high, you'll be stuck (e.g. I don't think you should bid 4s with this hand if it they had bid 4♥ instead of 2♠), but gambling on the 3-level with a decent hand and a known 9-card fit is totally fine.

3. No. There are some redeeming features with a fifth trump and a side fit for partner's suit, but it doesn't make up for the fact that it's a terrible 6-count with no aces, kings, or singletons. Something like AKxx Kxx AKJx xx or KQxx x AKxxx Kxx might be typical hands for partner. Neither makes a great game (though you might make on a good day), and sometimes he'll have worse spades or diamonds (Kxxx AKx Axxx Kx?) and you'll be very lucky to make 3.

[gwnn]

Hello,

It is very nice to see you coming back and willing to listen to others. So many players would consider the forums as an evil hostile place and leave after this response.

1. Not exactly 'whenever'. He should double 2S (assuming that's played as 3 card raise) with feeble hands like
Qxxx Ax QJxx Kxx
since this has the playing strength well below an average 1D opener with 4 card support.

2. Definitely true. In fact this is one of the reasons why bidding a lot as opponents pays off: now opps will overbid by necessity (but then you need good defence ).

3. No it's not good enough but it is kind of close. I would bid game with any king instead of one of the queens. Note that there are two major schools of thought regarding these jump raises in constructive bidding: one of them would normally bid 3S only with 18-19 balanced or equivalent strong unbalanced hand (think 16 with good honours and a singleton), one of them is happy to jump raise with about a king less (of course most balanced hands will be outside this range because they would have opened 1NT) and jump to 4M with all 18 balanced.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Mar 15 2010, 01:41 AM, said:

4♠ on the worst trumps possible and Q Q Q in the other suits? Sorry this is all your fault.

And AKxx x AKxxx xxx opposite 5+ spades and with opponents bidding hearts should bid 4♠ allllllll dayyyyyyyy.

agree again. 4S was insane.

[Fluffy]

1) depends on your agreements of 1♠, if 1♠ shows 5 then 3♠ all day. If it shows 4 you can often just bid support double with bad hands to slow partner.

2) yeah more or less, but I think more of half a trick rather than 1 full trick.

3) Qx and Qx is often useless for your contract, but not useless when defending, all you have is a queen and a double fit, you certainly should leave this decision to partner. With nothing bid nothing, and althou evryone would strenth to bid 1♠ with this hand, you have to know that you have stretched a little to do so already.

[Free]

4♠ is nuts

[ArtK78]

There are alternative calls available for North. With an invitational spade raise he could have bid 3♥. With a truly great spade raise he could have bid 4♠. So 3♠ should be viewed as merely competitive and correct on the given hand.

Double showing spades is certainly another option, but that is a matter of partnership agreement.

As others have said, 4♠ was clearly wrong.

[straube]

I like support dbls after 1m-(1H)-1S (2L) to show 2-cd support. You know partner has 5 and isn't the idea of the support dbl to show differentiate support when it might only be a 7-cd fit? Sure, it's nice to be able to differentiate between 3 and 4-cd support. Nice but not as necessary as finding a 5-2 fit.

[Fluffy]

straube, on Mar 15 2010, 04:52 PM, said:

I like support dbls after 1m-(1H)-1S (2L) to show 2-cd support. You know partner has 5 and isn't the idea of the support dbl to show differentiate support when it might only be a 7-cd fit? Sure, it's nice to be able to differentiate between 3 and 4-cd support. Nice but not as necessary as finding a 5-2 fit.

my partner told me to play double = 3 cards, 2♠ = 4 cards, never gave it a long thought, 4 card support is useful to invite sometimes.