[bobjan]

How would you understand dbl in:
1♥ - pass - 2♥ - pass
pass - DBL

Is it for takeout or penalty?

[ArtK78]

Classic balancing double.

Yes, it is remotely possible that the double is for penalties. But it is so unlikely after a raise that one should dismiss the possibility.

EDIT: What I meant to say was it was remotely possible that the player in pass out seat could have a penalty hand. But the double is not for penalties.

[jjbrr]

Takeout. Sometimes you have classic t/o shape but aren't strong enough to double directly over 1♥.

[aguahombre]

Actually you might find something from the 40's or 50's where it was treated as penalty. Anything more recent would favor takeout. (edited for typo)

[jdonn]

The past posts are a bit confusing in that some of them suggest it could be anything but takeout.

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Mar 9 2010, 09:42 AM, said:

The past posts are a bit confusing in that some of them suggest it could be anything but takeout.

Yeh, if you are referring to the above posts on this string, sorry for creating confusion. Today it is takeout. Sometimes players get strange ideas from the early days of bridge. Was just suggesting where someone might have gotten the idea that it was penalty.

[whereagles]

penalties?? no way

[karlson]

With everyone (including myself) doubling 1♥ lighter and lighter now, I find that it's very rare that I have a normal takeout double that was just too light before but is good enough now. The hands that are more frequent are the off-shape doubles like 42(25) or 43(15) and I feel like partner should cater to this hand type.

I think it's quite reasonable to play slightly higher auctions like 2h-p-3h-p-p-x as penalty fwiw.

[peachy]

Nothing to "take it as" or "understand".
It is a takeout double, made in the balancing seat. It is practically NEVER left in, in this auction.

[gwnn]

all of these doubles should be played as takeout, even
1H-p-4H-p
p-x

you will always have a hand that is very shapely but did not have enough to act previous round. you will rarely have a pure penalty double, especially when opps usually have many trumps. there are examples for both but for simplicity's sake it's best to keep all these x as takeout.

HOWEVER

1x-(1y)-p-(2y)
p-p-x

is for penalties because with a little shape you can always act in direct position since partner opened and the requirements dropped dramatically

[rogerclee]

gwnn, on Mar 9 2010, 04:06 PM, said:

HOWEVER

1x-(1y)-p-(2y)
p-p-x

is for penalties because with a little shape you can always act in direct position since partner opened and the requirements dropped dramatically

Disagree with this, it is best to play this double as two-way IMO.

[neilkaz]

gwnn, on Mar 9 2010, 05:06 PM, said:

all of these doubles should be played as takeout, even
1H-p-4H-p
p-x

you will always have a hand that is very shapely but did not have enough to act previous round. you will rarely have a pure penalty double, especially when opps usually have many trumps. there are examples for both but for simplicity's sake it's best to keep all these x as takeout.

Us old-fashioned players wonder what hands playing today's aggressive direct TO/X style and Michaels and U2NT can pass initially and then expect a good result making a TO oriented X after 4♥.

For me to pass and then X at this level is quite penalty oriented and PD should only pull with no defence and unusual offensive playing strength or with enough offense to expect to be a fav to make.

Please show some example hands.

[neilkaz]

jjbrr, on Mar 9 2010, 10:31 AM, said:

Takeout. Sometimes you have classic t/o shape but aren't strong enough to double directly over 1♥.

Yes classic balancing X and was so 30 years ago also at the 2 level.

[gwnn]

a good penalty double is something like

Axxx
QJT9
Axxx
x

and a good takeout is something like

QJxx
-
AQxx
xxxxx

the point being that partner could have a goodish hand with few hearts and now we show a little defence and he will pass with a balanced hand with hearts but he can pull with some length in any suits.

And we are really really unlikely to hold a penalty pass of hearts when they voluntarily jumped to the 4 level don't you agree?

[jdonn]

Gwnn I think that one is penalty. If I had xx AQJ Axxx xxxx (or worse, yipe!) I would gladly take my chances, who knows partner could have a trick or two as well. With 4045 hands people stretch to double originally with like 8 counts and I'm not sure I want to enter at this high a level on less than that.

[gwnn]

I'm just not happy with assigning an arbitrary limit between takeout doubles and penalty doubles. For example over 2H-p-4H-p-p there's going to be more 4054's than over 1-4, now maybe it would make sense for 1-4 to be penalty but 2-4 to be takeout. I don't think penalty doubles on these auctions have a high utility anyway so it's not a big deal to give them up for takeout doubles for the sake of a little clarity.

The same goes for auctions like 1m-1M-p-2M; p-p-x maybe sometimes it would make sense as a 2 way double but I am not convinced all of them do so better to have a simple rule (for me).

[jdonn]

Arbitrary limit? The "arbitrary" limit can just be "game"

[gwnn]

That's still an arbitrary limit methinks. While it's true that it is less of a problem if they make and we need less to penalize a high contract, it is also true that now finding a good fit could reap a higher IMP reward (good save or find a good game or win a double game swing). But I see what you're saying and we could agree to disagree.

[P_Marlowe]

bobjan, on Mar 9 2010, 11:19 AM, said:

How would you understand dbl in:
1♥ - pass - 2♥ - pass
pass - DBL

Is it for takeout or penalty?

Take out, but promises only 4 spades and a 4 card minor.

With kind regards
Marlowe