[Siegmund]

A couple of variations on a theme that arose Friday night at the club.

1♣ - (1♥) - Pass - (Pass)
X - (2♥) - X

On this forum there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a double that everybody agrees is penalty. What about this one? What are the alternatives? 3-card spade support? Responsive? (If your card already includes support and responsive doubles, and goes out of its way to use them a lot, is the default meaning of this double still penalty?)

As a followup question... if you're considering a non-penalty meaning for the above double... suppose you have the hand with the heart stack, and the second round of the auction is X - (2♥) - Pass - (Pass). Will partner always reopen with a double again if he reopened with a double the first time? Or are there a large number of minimal-ish hands -- say Kxx Qx Kxx Axxxx -- that reluctantly reopened once and will now fall silent?

[peachy]

Q1 Penalty
Q2 If a hand was good enough to open, and it has opponent's suit short, it is good enough to reopen. There are circumstances where this is not a hard rule, like Qx in their suit which tends to reduce the possibility that partner is on a trap pass and more indicates partner might be broke. After all, EVERYBODY can't have the heart honors and this hand is staring at one already. But going by simple principle of "short in their suit", I would not argue too heavily against reopening.

[karlson]

This one is just penalty. There is virtually no responsive double hand that shouldn't have doubled the first time or can't just bid a suit now.

The one for which you'll have a larger variety of responses is 1♥-p-p-x-2♥-x. I think it's pretty standard to play that one as penalty, but a lot of people, including myself, do play it as responsive. That discussion seems to pop up on the forums with reasonably high frequency.

[bid_em_up]

Siegmund, on Feb 13 2010, 11:26 PM, said:

A couple of variations on a theme that arose Friday night at the club.

1♣ - (1♥) - Pass - (Pass)
X - (2♥) - X

On this forum there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a double that everybody agrees is penalty. What about this one?

I would be surprised if anyone said this is not penalty (and especially not without discussion otherwise).

[jdonn]

This one is penalty. What hand passed on the first round that can act a level higher now when partner hasn't shown extra, except a penalty pass?

[Fluffy]

you can write a double 00 in your score before partner leads

[aguahombre]

How about a simple rule: a double behind an opponent who has bid his same suit twice without encouragement is PENALTY.

[Siegmund]

Remarkable unanimity in the forum today

For us, it seemed the meta-agreement "if one partner's double is non-penalty, so is the other partner's" - as applied on the previous round of the auction - might still apply but we couldnt come up with many hands where that made sense. Just wanted to make sure we weren't missing anything obvious.

[aguahombre]

that meta rule might work out better if the opponents both have shown their suit....like bids and raises.

[neilkaz]

Fluffy, on Feb 14 2010, 07:21 AM, said:

you can write a double 00 in your score before partner leads

Yep..penalty for sure here.

[pooltuna]

I'm perplexed ...where are all the posters for whom all doubles are takeout and for whom penalty doubles are just old fashioned and passe?

[PhantomSac]

In negative double situations, if the person who passed later Xs it always shows a trap pass of the overcall.

[655321]

pooltuna, on Feb 14 2010, 05:06 PM, said:

I'm perplexed ...where are all the posters for whom all doubles are takeout and for whom penalty doubles are just old fashioned and passe? 

Not sure that I understand this post...

Are you asking for pointers to beginners texts on takeout doubles in the modern game?
Are you saying this obvious penalty double should be played as takeout?
Are you saying because this obvious penalty double is a penalty double, therefore many of the doubles that were penalty doubles 60 years ago but are now treated as takeout, should still be penalty doubles?

Perhaps you could elaborate for me, thanks.

[aguahombre]

c'mon guys....Pool was not being serious. Hence the face. I have no doubt he understands this double is penalty.

[peachy]

aguahombre, on Feb 14 2010, 06:11 PM, said:

c'mon guys....Pool was not being serious. Hence the face. I have no doubt he understands this double is penalty.

Sometimes one can't tell if he is serious or not. But I'll take your word he was not serious this time

[pooltuna]

655321, on Feb 14 2010, 05:39 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Feb 14 2010, 05:06 PM, said:

I'm perplexed ...where are all the posters for whom all doubles are takeout and for whom penalty doubles are just old fashioned and passe? 

Not sure that I understand this post...

Are you asking for pointers to beginners texts on takeout doubles in the modern game?
Are you saying this obvious penalty double should be played as takeout?
Are you saying because this obvious penalty double is a penalty double, therefore many of the doubles that were penalty doubles 60 years ago but are now treated as takeout, should still be penalty doubles?

Perhaps you could elaborate for me, thanks.

I probably play more doubles as penalty than the average BBF poster.

[jdonn]

I don't find it difficult to tell when pooltuna is joking around. Of course the humor still needs a lot of work almost all the time

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Feb 15 2010, 11:51 AM, said:

I don't find it difficult to tell when pooltuna is joking around. Of course the humor still needs a lot of work almost all the time

yeah it's tough when you gotta go with the "blind pig method"

[Fluffy]

jdonn, on Feb 15 2010, 04:51 PM, said:

I don't find it difficult to tell when pooltuna is joking around. Of course the humor still needs a lot of work almost all the time

you mean... he is serious ever?

[Free]

pooltuna, on Feb 14 2010, 11:06 PM, said:

I'm perplexed ...where are all the posters for whom all doubles are takeout and for whom penalty doubles are just old fashioned and passe?

Partner did exactly that the first round. He had a penalty double and passed because Dbl then would've been takeout.

Now however, we've arrived at round 2 where this Dbl is clearly defined as penalty. A simple rule: "if it can't be takeout, it's penalty".