[mr1303]

Scoring: MP

---

Our auction:

1H 2C
2H 3D
3NT 4C
4S* 4NT
6C

1 off when LHO had K10xx of clubs.

Our agreement is to play some form of kickback. When hearts are agreed, 4S is kickback, when diamonds, 4H is kickback, and when clubs, 4D is kickback.

Partner claimed that because diamonds and hearts have both been bid naturally, 4S now would be kickback. I thought he was on another planet.

Thoughts?

Incidentally, how would you bid the hand after 3NT?

[Mbodell]

I think 4♣ is natural and slamming and thus 4♠ should be a cue in support of clubs.

[Rossoneri]

Mbodell, on Feb 13 2010, 02:41 PM, said:

I think 4♣ is natural and slamming and thus 4♠ should be a cue in support of clubs.

Agreed. I see no agreement of hearts as trump suit, so 4♠ should not be kickback.

[655321]

Klaatu barada nikto

[mohitz]

Playing kickback, the usual agreement is that the next non natural bid over 4 of the trump suit is the RKC ask. In my partnerships, here 4D will be setting diamonds, 4H an offer to play and hence 4S RKC for clubs.

I have no idea if this is standard or even the right way to play kickback!

[andy_h]

I don't have any experience in kickback (except for hearts) but isn't it normally used when a fit has been agreed and then you can kickback? Here it seems weird for North to have signed off in 3NT and now wants to keycard for clubs. When South is inviting slam, their partner should have bids that suggest a place to play (here 4♥ and I think 4♦ would be agreeing diamonds as some 3541 hands might not raised 4♦ previously] and given North has bid 3NT, a 4NT bid should also be regressive. That leaves 5♣ signoff and 4♠ as keycard, and you don't get any bids inbetween for a cooperative cue. Basically at the end of the day if you decide to agree on kickback you would need to have a lot of discussion because they can cause a lot of misunderstandings.

Over 3NT my auction would probably be something like:
3NT-4♣
?

I think 4♥, 4♠ and 4NT are plausible given if it's a signoff hand you don't particularly want to be in 5♣ at matchpoints. Maybe responder with 1246 might've bid 4♥ over 3NT as a NF slam invite but with more he would bid 4♣.
The 4♣ bid doesn't have to be that strong as well, maybe Ax x AJ10x AK10xxx and slam doesn't seem great so North should probably bid 4NT regressive but try 4♥ with a AQJxxx suit. Although it seems a bit hard for South to stop but after a regressive move from North, south won't bid on given it could be a 6-1 club fit.

Also if south has a pretty good hand with 2146 say something like Ax x AKxx AQJxxx and wants to know about a club fit he might bid 4♠ over 3NT to show he probably doesn't have a singleton heart honour.

[aguahombre]

Like all the bids up through 4C.
Then would have chosen 4N. 2nd try at applying Hamman's rule

[mike777]

mr1303, on Feb 13 2010, 05:31 AM, said:

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KQx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AQ109xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> xx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Ax </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> K </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AJ10x </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AQJxxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

Our auction:

1H 2C
2H 3D
3NT 4C
4S* 4NT
6C

1 off when LHO had K10xx of clubs.

Our agreement is to play some form of kickback. When hearts are agreed, 4S is kickback, when diamonds, 4H is kickback, and when clubs, 4D is kickback.

Partner claimed that because diamonds and hearts have both been bid naturally, 4S now would be kickback. I thought he was on another planet.

Thoughts?

Incidentally, how would you bid the hand after 3NT?

yes partner is just making stuff up.

I play kickback all the time.


I would just pass 3nt. Pard could have far far worse.


If forced to bid prefer 4nt over 3nt....invite.

[PhantomSac]

Partner isn't "making things up," his interpretation is very reasonable, and in my experience it's normal if something would normally be keycard but it's not since it's needed as natural, the next step up is the one that's keycard.

In this auction one might argue that 4D is needed as natural. But opener didn't bid 2D over 2C which he usually would with 4 diamonds. If he happened to choose to bid 2H with his 6-4, he would never bid 3N when partner bids diamonds, even with a double spade stopper that would be horrible. So opener does not have 4 diamonds, and responder does not have 5 diamonds (else 4D over 3N), so there can be no diamond fit. So I would say 4D is keycard, and 4S is just a cue.

However if 4D and 4H were both needed as natural then I think your partner would be consistent with normal kickback rules. With my old partner Kevin we had a stipulation for these situations "if there is only 1 available bid, it is a slam TRY, not keycard."

You have a whole level of bidding over 4C, but if 4D, 4H, and 4N are all natural, then that stipulation would override the "if the next step is needed as natural then the next step up is keycard..." thing.

If 4N was not needed as natural though, then 4S would be keycard and 4N would be a slam try in our rules.

[Apollo81]

North's 4♠ bid, whatever it means, isn't in my top 3 preferred bids at that decision. I also think it's sort of silly for South to assume it's keycard if all you've agreed/discussed is "let's play kickback"

[jdonn]

I think partner is insane for assuming this undiscussed.

[straube]

I usually only play kickback if the suit has been agreed or if I can jump to the keycard ask. I've had different understandings with people as to whether 1H-2D, 4H is keycard or not (think it should not be) but I don't like to have any sort of keycard when we're finding a fit at the 4-level.

In this auction, 4D cannot be natural. I would argue that the 4D bid should be a "stuck" bid for opener who is not excited about clubs and unwilling to rebid his hearts again. He might be hoping that responder will retreat to hearts with a stiff honor or otherwise place the contract. I think I'd take 4S as a cue for clubs and 4N as natural.

I think I disagree with the auction...assuming you're playing 2/1 GF. After 1H-2C, 2H-3D just confuses things. Opener has either denied or tended to deny diamonds and 3D can easily be interpreted to show a diamond holding (possibly three cards) in the search for 3N. 3N then says "I have spades stopped".


If responder had rebid 3C, that would indicate 5-level (at least) aspirations. Probably opener would rebid 3S to show strength in spades and deny strength in diamonds. 4N quantitative by responder might have ended the auction.

[mike777]

I think the main question is what is the best use of 4d here.

ya over 4c I would just think on this auction:




4d=rkc for clubs, we give up the ability to bid 4d natural, 4d is the only way to rkc for clubs.
4h=hearts, very long hearts
4s=cuebid, agree clubs
4nt=natural to play
5c=natural to play
5d=natural to play



btw I prefer 1h=2d=4h to be rkc for D, that means with long hearts I got to bid slower but I think this is a rare rare auction.

[gnasher]

I think the main question is whether, for this partnership, the benefits of Kickback justify the risk of this sort of misunderstanding.

[fromageGB]

4♠ is kickback self-agreeing hearts. I certainly use kickback without explicit trump agreement, though it needs loads of discussion of principles when there is no explicit agreement and it is not a jump.

But I don't like opener's bidding as 3♥ would have been game forcing, and a better prelude if he intended hearts as the only possible contract.

4♦ would have asking in clubs, 4♥ would have been natural as he failed to support diamonds earlier. 4♠ doesn't make sense as a cuebid with clubs as trumps, because you get much more info starting with 4♦.

On these hands, good bidding upto 3♦. I prefer 3♥ to 3NT. 4♣ is definitely right, you want to emphasise the suit and slammish nature. However, opener is rock-bottom minimum : having bid 3NT on the last round I would now choose 4♥. That makes it tricky for responder...

[ArtK78]

mike777, on Feb 13 2010, 02:21 PM, said:

I would just pass 3nt. Pard could have far far worse.

How much worse can he be? He did open the bidding.

[hanp]

ArtK78, on Feb 17 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

mike777, on Feb 13 2010, 02:21 PM, said:

I would just pass 3nt. Pard could have far far worse.

How much worse can he be? He did open the bidding.

AQx Axxxx xxx xx?

[Jlall]

hanp, on Feb 18 2010, 04:06 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Feb 17 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

mike777, on Feb 13 2010, 02:21 PM, said:

I would just pass 3nt. Pard could have far far worse.

How much worse can he be? He did open the bidding.

AQx Axxxx xxx xx?

Alright dutchymcdutch

[hanp]

I would not open that hand, but mike777 would.