[bluecalm]

Final of major polish tournament series. Assume decent opps.

Scoring: MP

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1♠* - 5♣ - dbl - pass
????

1♠ was (9)10-15hcp.

I think these are the possibilities :
pass
5♥
5NT
6♣

Thoughts ?

[helene_t]

Not sure what the difference between 5NT and 6♣ is. I go for 5NT.

[peachy]

I don't want to defend with this until it is 7CX.
6C = pick a slam. Maybe some competent bidding theorist could explain what the difference is between 5NT and 6C, they both ask partner to pick a slam as far as I understand.

[Hanoi5]

6♣, it should show the void. However, I'm a little concerned partner might have some clubs and I also don't like my opening: my hand is too strong for 1♠ 9-15.

[gwnn]

6♣ is pick-a-slam with 1st order control, 5NT is pick-a-slam without. I will bid 6♣ but I am not very happy about it, I feel a little light, but at least we will play the best strain almost always. Some people may say that 6♣ is a grand try with Ace/void and 5NT might contain 1st round control but I do not agree with them.

[lamford]

If partner's double is takeout, then 5NT or 6C seem sensible. We are not likely to bid a grand, so I don't think we gain much by showing the void.

However, this all depends on the methods. To what level is double takeout? And would pass be forcing at these colours? I shall make a note to discuss these questions with my regular partner, as I don't want to bid anything opposite a 2-4-4-3 five count with QTx of clubs.

[kayin801]

Hanoi5, on Jan 23 2010, 03:46 PM, said:

6♣, it should show the void. However, I'm a little concerned partner might have some clubs and I also don't like my opening: my hand is too strong for 1♠ 9-15.

100% agree here, but then again, partner knows we're limited so when we make this kind of bid they should be able to make a fairly informed decision.

[gwnn]

lamford, why would partner want to x with a 5 count? is this the special olympics?

[lamford]

gwnn, on Jan 23 2010, 06:42 PM, said:

lamford, why would partner want to x with a 5 count? is this the special olympics?

It is not everyone's style to play negative doubles up to 7H. We are not advised by the OP what double means and if it is penalties, then anything other than pass is wrong; if it is takeout then pass is wrong.

A couple of strong precision players that I know think that Pass should be forcing at adverse, and then double is takeout. But it would be nice to be told the style, especially as we were told what 1S meant. The WBF convention card goes out of its way to ask to what level negative doubles apply; the answers they had varied from 4H up to 7H at the World Championships in Geneva, where I happened to see all the convention cards.

[helene_t]

Pass forcing? Really? I thought that would be only over a strong 1♣ opening.

[lamford]

So what do you do with a hand that wants to defend 5C doubled?

[Fluffy]

pass?

its an easy 6♣ bid.

[jdonn]

What do you do when they open 1♣ and you have a hand that wants to defend 1♣X?

[Jlall]

5N, I don't really want to encourage 7 even though I have the first round control.

[MarkDean]

6♣ for me. About the best hand possible for the auction so far (among those not bidding a second suit).

[bluecalm]

Double is "cards" by agreement. Pass wouldn't be forcing.
Now I understand that this agreement may not be the best and doubler hand may not be a good doubling hand. So two more questions :
How would you like to play the double ? What is the example of minimum hand that want to double ?

In real hand the doubler had :

Q84
T952
AQ
K652

Is it too light a double ? What would you do playing YOUR style ? What would you do playing double as "cards" ? What would do you laying double as "negative" ?
If you pass, do you think partner should make a reopening double with his hand ? (or some maximum 5-4-3-1 hands ?).

Thanks for interesting discussion so far

[gnasher]

bluecalm, on Jan 24 2010, 05:36 AM, said:

How would you like to play the double ? What is the example of minimum hand that want to double ?

As a hand which would have some hope of making game opposite a minimum. That is, double says that we have a plus score to protect, rather than that they're going down. The idea is to maximise accuracy when it's our hand, at the cost of missing a penalty when it's a partscore deal and they've overreached. Qxx Kxxx AQ xxxx would be an acceptable minimum.

Quote

In real hand the doubler had :

Q84
T952
AQ
K652

Holding four clubs, I'd be expecting opener to take it out almost all the time - we know his expected number of clubs is about 0.5. With the actual hand, I don't want him to do that, so I'd pass.

If opener has a maximum to go with his short clubs, he'll double and we'll pick up a large penalty. If he has a minimum, he'll pass, so we'll have missed a smaller penalty. However, if that's the case, we probably couldn't make anything more than a partscore, so we haven't lost anything against par.

On opener's actual hand, I'd reopen with a double.

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Jan 23 2010, 06:42 PM, said:

lamford, why would partner want to x with a 5 count? is this the special olympics?

how about a 6 count
xxx
xxx
xxx
AQT9

[dake50]

Partner guesses me C-short and warns against higher with X. Do I have unusual enough to countermand that? NO.

[lamford]

gnasher, on Jan 24 2010, 04:01 AM, said:

Quote

In real hand the doubler had :

Q84
T952
AQ
K652

Holding four clubs, I'd be expecting opener to take it out almost all the time - we know his expected number of clubs is about 0.5. With the actual hand, I don't want him to do that, so I'd pass.

I would agree with all that, and would reopen with the hand opposite. In other words we are both playing negative doubles to a pretty high level.

"Cards" is a frequent agreement that partners like to have for these doubles, and I don't think it is precise enough, which is why we have the disaster that this hand clearly was.