[ArtK78]

This hand occurred in a live KO match last night.

Scoring: IMP

(3♠) - P - (4♠) - 4NT
(P) - 5♦ - (x) - All Pass

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The result was making 5 for +750 as both the ♣A and ♥K were onside and diamonds were 3-2. The result was duplicated at the other table, although I do not know the auction at the other table.

Clearly 5♥ is a better contract. Is it impractical to find a way to get to 5♥ - the best possible result - as opposed to 5♦ - the best result possible?

I suspect that getting to 5♥ is just not practical.

[jdonn]

Impractical to get to 5♥. WDOs (well sort of hehe).

[phil_20686]

Presumeably 4NT was two places to play rather than take out. With this particular hand couldn't south double for take out and just play opposite partners longest suit? Surely there are a wide class of hands which you would like to play in clubs here? If partner is 4-2-1-6 or something will you not look pretty stupic having bid 4n rather than make a t/o double? I would have just doubled for take out here and then partner would have bid 5h since its his longest suit. Have I missed something here?

[hanp]

Partner would pass.

[jdonn]

phil_20686, on Jan 20 2010, 12:06 PM, said:

Presumeably 4NT was two places to play rather than take out. With this particular hand couldn't south double for take out and just play opposite partners longest suit? Surely there are a wide class of hands which you would like to play in clubs here? If partner is 4-2-1-6 or something will you not look pretty stupic having bid 4n rather than make a t/o double? I would have just doubled for take out here and then partner would have bid 5h since its his longest suit. Have I missed something here?

Double for takeout is fine. What you are missing is that partner will pass it not bid 5♥. But that's a perfectly good result so well done.

[ArtK78]

I agree that double for takeout is fine. And I agree that partner will pass with his hand, resulting in +500, which is certainly acceptable (although the difference between +750 and +500 would have ALMOST cost us the match).

However, the way that I play a double of 4♠ and the way most players play a double of 4♠ is that it is not exclusively for takeout. It is not exclusively a penalty double, either, but it tends to show power rather than shape. Call it an "optional" double if that term has any meaning.

Even though I have significant defensive values, I thought I would rather bid up to 5 of a red suit on this hand. The opps might even bid one more at this vul.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on Jan 20 2010, 11:31 AM, said:

I agree that double for takeout is fine. And I agree that partner will pass with his hand, resulting in +500

However, the way that I play a double of 4♠ and the way most players play a double of 4♠ is that it is not exclusively for takeout. It is not exclusively a penalty double, either, but it tends to show power rather than shape. Call it an "optional" double if that term has any meaning.

Therefore, double is not fine. It will generally be left in. If not left in, it will uncover a 9+card club fit or an 11+card red-suit fit. A removal of the double is not pass or correct, because the remover will not expect this hand.

[Jlall]

lol 4N

[dake50]

Shouldn't there have been redouble to outscore 6H on?

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on Jan 20 2010, 08:30 PM, said:

lol 4N

Please elaborate.

[rogerclee]

I won't put words in Justin's mouth, but you need a good fit or quite a bit in points to make 5D/5H with your hand, and you have very reasonable defense against 4Sx. It is far less risky to double and see if partner can pull, and if he cant, to try to beat it. Double also allows partner to bid 5C, which I would be very happy to sit for. When you are going plus in 5D/5H you are also probably beating 4S because you have such good defensive values. You are risking going for a number when you should actually be going plus or collecting a number. Overall it seems very likely to me at least that 4N will convert a plus score to a minus score very often. For these reasons I would double and call it clear.

[ArtK78]

Out of curiosity, what would partner do if he held:

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If that were his hand, presumably he would pass 4♠x. We would then be lucky to collect 300. Meanwhile, we are (somewhat luckily) making 5 of either red suit. And, if we can't make 5 of either red suit, it is likely that we would collect only 100 or perhaps even -590 against 4♠x.

Also, while it is next to impossible to get to 5♥ on the auction at our table, 5♥ could be claiming (and 5♦ failing) while 4♠ is either making or down only one trick if the diamonds were not 3-2.

So, I don't think this is much of an LOL.

[rogerclee]

I wasn't trying to prove that it was impossible for 4N to work out better than double. I was trying to explain why it was less likely to work out better.

[jdonn]

But Roger, out of curiosity what would partner do if he holds KQT9 xxx xxx xxx?

[rogerclee]

I play double is takeout, so partner is expected to bid fairly often, but with that hand I would pass.

[helene_t]

If hearts are 3-1 we only take five defensive tricks. I would double, too, if partner will take it out with a 4432-shape with xxx in spades. Not everyone will, though. With an unknown p I feel more for 4NT.

[Jlall]

ArtK78, on Jan 21 2010, 04:21 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jan 20 2010, 08:30 PM, said:

lol 4N

Please elaborate.

tough to defend 4S X (by far the most likely thing you want to do when you have this hand) or play in 5C (definitely what you want to do if partner will bid it over your X) when you bid 4N!

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on Jan 21 2010, 05:35 PM, said:

But Roger, out of curiosity what would partner do if he holds KQT9 xxx xxx xxx?

I don't know why you would cater to this setup of the cards when the opponents are telling you that they have the spade suit pretty much locked up.

I gave the situation a little more thought and determined that you might miss a slam on hands that partner would probably pass a double of 4♠. For example:

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You are likely to take 300 or 500 against 4♠x, although it could be as little as 100 or as much as 800. But 6♦ is a virtual claim. And no one would argue that partner has an action over 3♠ or would do anything other than pass if you doubled 4♠.

There are even hands that partner might hold where he would pass the double of 4♠ and you have play for a grand, such as

---

Sure, the double might work out better. Sure, it might be right to play the hand in clubs. But I believe that playing the hand in a red suit offers greater potential.

[Jlall]

Oh partner might pass the X when it's wrong, I had no idea, in that case 4N must be clearcut, sry.

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on Jan 22 2010, 12:33 AM, said:

Oh partner might pass the X when it's wrong, I had no idea, in that case 4N must be clearcut, sry.

Thanks for the helpful reply. No doubt we are all very impressed.