[DWM]

We are currently playing a 10-12 NT and strong club, 5 card majors, 3 weak twos.

After talking we feel that mini NT in 3rd seat is not the best and not too sure about the best range for 4th seat.

Our opening style is quite agressive so there are very few, if any, 11 point hands that we will pass in first or second seat.

At the moment the simplest suggestion we have for NT in third or 4th seat is 12-14 or 13-15, but toying with the idea of 4-4 minors or better in 3rd seat.

The 2D 11+ enquiry is a waster bid after a 2C opening (6+ ♣ or 5/4 ♣/M. Not too sure about the best option for this, unless its bid your major P I have bad clubs.

Any recommendations for a different treatment for the bids mentioned above.

If something fancy is recommended for the 1NT bid will the 1D bid have a more specfic meaning.

If possible could recommendations be suitable for level 4 in the UK.

[shevek]

Over a natural 2♣, either you play relay or you don't.

If you don't, how about 2♦ & 2♥ as transfers?
Also 2♠ as the enquiry.
Plus 2NT & 3♣ as raises. Suggest 2NT weakish & 3♣ invite.

[glen]

I would suggest for opposite-passed-hand 1NT that you either want:

a.) a 1NT opening that is wide ranging, but limited in that responder will never have enough to invite in NT - for example 10-14 opposite a system that opens all 11s.

b.) a 1NT opening that has a minimum such that responder will still bid 3NT some of the time - for example, opposite a system that passes flat 9s, 16-18. However see awm's clever discussion in another thread that recommends that it is better to open the strong ♣ with 16-18, and open 1NT with 19-21 (I would modify that to open 1♣ with 16-17, 1NT with 18-20).

You might decide to use a.) 3rd seat not-vulnerable, and b.) the rest of the 3rd and all 4th seat times.

[akhare]

Why not make the 3rd seat NT wider ranging when NV? 12-14 or 13-15 or even 14-16 is OK when vul, but it seems that you can really make them guess by opening say 10-14 in the 3rd seat, NV....

[Siegmund]

imo glen hit it pretty much on the head.

This is similar to your own suggestion about requiring 44 minors, in a way - though you might just require 3+3+ in the minors. (In my own experiments with 1NT 11-14 no 4CM, 3rd seat is one of the times I really like it, for the trouble it inflicts on fourth hand trying to get his majors into the bidding.)

[awm]

Recently I've been toying with the idea of playing a very standard system in 3/4 seat. When you think about it, what are the apparent advantages of a strong club system:

(1) Lighter opening bids. But in 3/4 seat, people playing standard methods open pretty light. The wide range is not a big concern because partner is limited and cannot hang you by game forcing on some 12-count (because that hand would've opened).

(2) Limited opening bids. This lets partner blast game sometimes on good hands and pressures the person in fourth seat. But what "good hand" can partner have after the initial pass, especially in a system where we open pretty light? Not to mention that the person to responder's left has already passed, so pressuring them is less valuable.

(3) Better bidding on strong hands when opponents don't interfere. However, given the light opening style partner will rarely have a game-forcing response to a strong club, even if you up your minimum 1♣ to 17 or so. Most of the advantage in unobstructed big club auctions stems from setting up an early game force, which will rarely happen at this point.

On the other hand, strong club systems have a number of disadvantages especially in competitive auctions when opener bids a strong club or nebulous diamond instead of a more informative "standard" opening call. Third seat openings are potentially more vulnerable here, because a competitive auction is more likely and because the opponent in fourth chair has free reign to jump the bidding knowing that his partner is a passed hand. There are also situations where you really want to make a lead-directional call, and a precision 1♦ opening has little lead-directional value (might even be opener's shortest suit).

[slyq]

not vul
playing a wide range nt 9-13 where p can
bid 2d 2h 2s natural nf
2c scramble
scince p wont have a hand
he can invite with
and use 2nt 3-level
responses as 5-5
( 2nt weak c or 5-5 with c)
these are only likely hands u
may have game on after passing
( xcept poss 9-10 6c)
vul u will get carved if you play this
so strong vul 14-16

[CamHenry]

akhare, on Jan 16 2010, 12:41 PM, said:

Why not make the 3rd seat NT wider ranging when NV? 12-14 or 13-15 or even 14-16 is OK when vul, but it seems that you can really make them guess by opening say 10-14 in the 3rd seat, NV....

This is what Matt and I do. In short rounds (1-6 boards), we cannot play 1NT as "sometimes artificial, sometimes natural", so we play:
NV: 9-11 1st/2nd, 9-15 3rd, 12-15 4th.
V: 14-16 1st/2nd, 12-15 3rd/4th.

Our nebulous minor opening includes the other sub-16HCP balanced range in 1st/2nd, and is never a balanced hand in 3rd/4th. Passed-hand responses to 1NT are weak takeout.

[akhare]

awm, on Jan 16 2010, 03:10 PM, said:

Recently I've been toying with the idea of playing a very standard system in 3/4 seat.

As I recollect, Richard (hrothgar) advocated this idea also -- basically, it was Moscito in the 1st and 2nd seats and then 2/1 or Blue Club in 3rd / 4th...

[Free]

When I played MOSCITO f2f, we played some sort of canapé club in 3&4 with lots of success. The limited openings were 12-16, strong club was 17+, and a wide ranging 1NT opening (12+-16). Slam auctions were extremely rare in those situations, so our system was optimized to fight part score battles and bid games.