[paulhar]

I do not intend to say where this hand came from and I'm hoping that if you know where it came from, you keep it to yourself as it is not my intention to embarrass anybody.

Scoring: Matchpoints (very important!)

The conditions: You were a contender for a national title playing with your regular partner. You were vacationing far away from home with said partner and staying with a friend. The friend says he has a half table in his game and wondered if you and your partner would like to fill it. You agree.

Come to find out, it's a game of his students. They've been learning for quite a while, and probably play as well as Intermediates on BBO. Your first round opponent is excitedly telling her partner that she just had come back from the local Flight B Swiss and they won TWO MATCHES and she won almost a whole point - playing against those good players - oh gosh, some of them were even Life Masters!

Despite your status, you are unknown to all the players in the game.

You hold:
S-842
H-973
D-K8742
C-A5

LHO opens 1C, RHO bids 2NT (forcing), LHO bids 3NT.

Dummy tables:
S-AJ6
H-K105
D-109
C-KQ1094

You lead the four of diamonds (I hate that orange square so I'm going to print it out), and partner wins the ace (declarer plays the 3). At trick 2, partner returns the diamond Queen (declarer playing the 6.)

Crunch time! At IMPs, I'm sure all of us would overtake the queen of diamonds and promote five tricks for the defense.

But, alas, this is matchpoints. You can be a hero. Or you can get a +50 in a sea of +100's. But it's great column material!

Since I had to put the responses on one line, one of them is cryptic. Let me explain. What the choice before 'other' means is that you would like to go ask your friend how much he stresses that responder shouldn't have a four-card major when responding 2NT. And the choice before that implies that you're going to believe the answer the student gives you.

Also, when I say 'based on the conditions', I mean the relative expertise of the players, assume it's always matchpoints.

[luke warm]

a forcing 2nt over 1c seems to be a treatment that won't necessarily be duplicated at other tables... probably the response will be a major at the one level, and it's likely your lho will declare at nt... if this is true, will your partner find the diamond lead?

i voted to overtake, based on the above... it's also possible (likely?) that other tables will be playing in some other contract... it's a tough call at matchpoints, but i'd overtake

[1eyedjack]

I overtake. Partner should play Q at trick 1 from AQx

[flytoox]

1eyedjack, on Jul 10 2004, 03:52 PM, said:

I overtake. Partner should play Q at trick 1 from AQx

i agree. this is a good agreement to have.

[cherdano]

flytoox, on Jul 10 2004, 04:13 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jul 10 2004, 03:52 PM, said:

I overtake.  Partner should play Q at trick 1 from AQx

i agree. this is a good agreement to have.

It's more than an agreement. If declarer has Kxx, he can safely duck two rounds if you play the Ace the first time. If you play the queen, he will usually take the first trick.

[paulhar]

1eyedjack, on Jul 10 2004, 10:52 AM, said:

I overtake. Partner should play Q at trick 1 from AQx

I thought you played queen from AQx if you expect to be able to gain the lead before partner. With the opening leader having the ace of clubs, you risk misleading your partner by playing Q from AQx, and the opening leader is going to be the one who gets in anyway so the Q play is unnecessary. I know y'all are going to tell me about Smith Echos, but when partner has led from Jxxxx and 109 comes down in dummy, and it's clear that opening leader is going to be the one who gets in, shouldn't your Smith show the 8, telling your partner it's OK to crash the 10 with his jack (since entry preservation isn't an issue)?

I have an alternate question. Suppose instead of playing with your regular partner you were playing with one of the students. Would that make any difference?

[1eyedjack]

paulhar, on Jul 10 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

With the opening leader having the ace of clubs, you risk misleading your partner by playing Q from AQx, and the opening leader is going to be the one who gets in anyway so the Q play is unnecessary.

There is something in that, to be sure. If you play the Ace then Queen then it clarifies the position of both of those cards, when playing the Queen leaves the position of the Ace in doubt. Interesting rider to this is if you are declarer and hold both the Ace King and the lead goes x, x, Q to you, better to win with the King. With just the Ace you are likely to hold up, so if you play the Ace then leader is likely to place you with the King (even though his partner would play Q from KQ in third seat). By winning with the King you leave in (greater) doubt the position of the Ace, assuming that third seat would habitually play the Q from AQx.

That is (to my mind) an interesting point because the general rule for maximising defenders' doubt is normally for declarer to win with the highest of equally ranking cards.

However to say that playing the Q is "misleading" is to overstate the case, if by agreement you would normally play the Q from AQx. Both partners should be alive to that agreement. Certainly the leader may be in doubt about the location of the Ace, but he should not be surprised if his partner turns up with that card.

It is rarely obvious which defender is likely next to obtain the lead, from the point of view of the defender playing the third card to the first trick. Playing the Q from AQx also has the advantage that it removes leader's doubt about how to defend in precisely the situation presented at the beginning of this thread.

Quote

I have an alternate question. Suppose instead of playing with your regular partner you were playing with one of the students. Would that make any difference?

I think not. It is a useful principle for a student to learn. Get them thinking properly about the hand, rather than playing by rote.

[Chamaco]

Overtake.
You were lucky to hit the killing opening lead, since bidding tend to suggest the lead of a major.
Do not try for more when you already have an advantage on the field based on opening lead.

[Trpltrbl]

Overtake and set up suit. With AQx pd would have played Q first.

Mike

[Free]

With AQx, p had to play the Q at trick 1. So p has only AQ, and you need to overtake to set up suit for -1. If you don't overtake, you'll be stuck at 3NT=.

P has shown 6HCP, since we have 7HCP, I don't see much future in any major suit, and I won't get squeezed since I still have ♣A. Say RHO would have 4-4M - you never know with weirdo's , he'll still only make 9 tricks (max 8 in Majors and 1♦), so we don't give anything away with overtaking, unless our p screwed us...

[EarlPurple]

If we made this a defensive problem from the other side of the table, you might have to consider whether playing the queen of diamonds could cost matchpoints. I think it cannot.

Unless declarer is now going to run of all 13 tricks, thus turn up with

KQx
AJxx
Kxxx
AJ

in which case he'd win ♦K, run off 5 rounds of clubs (throwing all his remaining diamonds) and 3 spades then correctly guess hearts for the rest.

But then you may score well for the opps missing a slam (albeit that it required a heart guess and ♦A onside).

[1eyedjack]

EarlPurple, on Jul 12 2004, 05:44 AM, said:

If we made this a defensive problem from the other side of the table, you might have to consider whether playing the queen of diamonds could cost matchpoints. I think it cannot.

Unless declarer is now going to run of all 13 tricks, thus turn up with

KQx
AJxx
Kxxx
AJ

in which case he'd win ♦K, run off 5 rounds of clubs (throwing all his remaining diamonds) and 3 spades then correctly guess hearts for the rest.

But then you may score well for the opps missing a slam (albeit that it required a heart guess and ♦A onside).

As has been pointed out, the other time it might cost is when opening leader fails to continue the suit when in with the Club Ace, for fear that declarer had both Ace-King of Diamonds and won trick one with the King. (Just because you would play the Q from AQx does not mean that playing the Q promices the A). I think that this is falacious reasoning, but it is a possibility.

[paulhar]

paulhar, on Jul 10 2004, 09:26 AM, said:

You hold:
S-842
H-973
D-K8742
C-A5

LHO opens 1C, RHO bids 2NT (forcing), LHO bids 3NT.

Dummy tables:
S-AJ6
H-K105
D-109
C-KQ1094

(The hand is repeated for convenience.)

I was almost ready to concede when the voice of sanity returned! I gave my wife (apparently a better analyst of hands than I ) this problem. She immediately stated, 'Of course I overtake at IMPs. At matchpoints, it's obvious that partner has no entry and he'll be afraid to play the Q from AQx since he's afraid that if I have the jack of dimaonds fifth and the ace of hearts(!), the declarer will steal his ninth trick (2S, 1 stolen H, the diamond King, and five clubs) before he gets to play Smith. (Please find the fallacy in this argument.)

As for the argument that at other tables they might have responded a major and played notrump from the other side, #1, you have no advantage over these pairs unless your partner has AQ doubleton. If partner has AQx, you're going to get in with the ace of clubs and can switch do diamonds yourself. If partner has AQ tight, those pairs are making 430 and your -400 beats them anyway. And sometimes, the major will get raised and with the lucky 3-3 split and the doubleton in dummy, only 3 tricks are available to the defense so the difference between +50 and -400 doesn't matter versus those tables either. So, basically, I think you are only competing against the people that are playing the direction you are. And, the people that didn't lead a diamond are going to have no option to overtake when they switch to a diamond upon leading the ace of clubs. They have to hope partner has D-AQx and will set the contract 2 tricks when partner does. So, since you have the club Ace, I just can't buy the argument that you are at an advantage either because (1) you were on lead, or (2) you chose a diamond lead.

[luis]

I will apply a strange version of "restricted choice" here,
With J653 declarer if he wants to misslead us can play 3-6, or 5-6 (hiding the 3 or the 5).
With J63 he can only play the 6 and the 3.

So I let my pd hold the trick and hope to get +100. :-)

Luis

[mishovnbg]

overtake without long thinking...
Misho