[DWM]

I am wondering what other people hope to gain by contributing to or reading the forums.

I understand that there are a wide range of abilities and opinions on the forums.

When I read most topics that ask bidding questions there are quite a few replies along the lines of

obv double
4H is clear
etc

I know some people are just quickly adding the basic information, but does anybody find this a bit frustrating when there is lots of such information on one post, especially when there are a split of opinion with a balance of the two above or similar.

I certainly find it better when there is even one line of explanation about the preferred bid. I think this both allows better discussion over the problem and allow those who are reading this forum to learn to see the reasoning behind the thoughts of those who are more experienced.

[bluecalm]

Sometimes explanation just doesn't contribute anything. Arguments for different options are pretty clear and it all comes down to which factor is most important in given situation. You can only know it from experience and intuition (and sometimes some simulations may help though they are imperfect).
"Obvious 4H" from world class player is worth more than thousand words of explanation from aspiring "expert". When I wrote the "explanation" I am usually hoping that better players here will correct me and say : "you overvalue this and undervalue this". That's the chance to improve for me.

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on Jan 13 2010, 03:39 AM, said:

"Obvious 4H" from world class player is worth more than thousand words of explanation from aspiring "expert".

Absolutely. Who says something is much more valuable than what is said. And dogma from an expert is much more helpful than a clear explanation --especially when the principle involved might be applicable to other situations.

[the hog]

When you contribute and read responses here for a while, you will quickly come to realise who writes sense.

[Codo]

I strongly disagree with the two posters above.

1. Even if a world class players states something as "obv." or "wtp" he may disagree with many other experts.

Example: The top players in my country have quite strong dogmas about which carding you should use. One is very sure that length marks are essential. The other is as sure that attitude is the best to show.

How helpful is it if they post here and write: Show your length,WTP???? and the other? ATTITUDE- OBV!!!!

2. Do you know who the experts are? There are many here who use the short answers but are not world class.

3. I do learn much more from Justin when he writes his reasons then when he writes "Lol". Don't you?
If he says "LOL" you have a strong evidence that the choice was bad. But why? How can you improve your thinking if you just know the result of his thinking process?

4. It is true the evaluation is the key in most descissions. But how can you learn to evaluate if you do not know which factors you should use and which are overrated and which are not.


But we had enough frustrated threads about LOL, WTP etc. before. This happens and nobody will change it. So live with and. It will cost you 3 seconds to go to the next thread- hopefully of more value for you.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Absolutely. Who says something is much more valuable than what is said. And dogma from an expert is much more helpful than a clear explanation --especially when the principle involved might be applicable to other situations.

I am not saying that explanations are always useless. What I am saying is that they are useless most of the time because most of the time all the relevant factors are pretty obvious for everybody and it all comes down to decide which are more important.
When world class player says : "LOL, 4H" and my intution is : "pass". I see that I can probably revealuate. It's also very valuable to know that this world class player consider this decision as obvious. Those two pieces of information are much more valuable for me than 95% of "explanations" I see on forums, books, articles, speeches etc.

When I am writing the "explanation" I try to picture what I am considering important factors and I am hoping that someone better than me comes to my thread and says: "lol, 3NT obv" so at least I know my evaluation in the best case a bit too optimistic/pessimistic and more probably simply wrong.

[DWM]

When two people whose posts I tend to take more note of post opposing views it is so hard to judge the correct view when one says 4H obvious and the other says something along the lines of double to show your values, your hands defensive values should be shown....

Also putting a bit more of an explanation helps to use personal judgement to see if a treatment is suitable for a specific system.

[bluecalm]

Quote

When two people whose posts I tend to take more note of post opposing views it is so hard to judge the correct view

It won't be any easier if they write a book about specific situation. If it were easy to "judge the correct view" they wouldn't have different views... at least if they are world class players.

I admit though that I like 'explanations' they are nice to read and it's nice to see what factors are the most important for good players. I am just defending all those "wtp, lol, 3nt" answers because I find them very valuable.

[billw55]

bluecalm, on Jan 13 2010, 08:18 AM, said:

When I am writing the "explanation" I try to picture what I am considering important factors and I am hoping that someone better than me comes to my thread and says: "lol, 3NT obv" so at least I know my evaluation in the best case a bit too optimistic/pessimistic and more probably simply wrong.

Agree, I post my thoughts with the intent that when they are wrong, someone will tell me, and perhaps also tell me why.

As for differeing opinions .. bridge is a complex game, with many situations where there is no one absolutely correct answer. This is a good thing. One consequence is that there will inevitably be situations where experts and even world class players will disagree. This is also a good thing! When it happens on the forums, that's an opportunity for me to learn about the different ways experts may perceive the same situation, which adds to my data set of expert thinking, perhaps more than a unaminous answer would.

[peachy]

bluecalm, on Jan 13 2010, 05:39 AM, said:

Sometimes explanation just doesn't contribute anything. Arguments for different options are pretty clear and it all comes down to which factor is most important in given situation. You can only know it from experience and intuition (and sometimes some simulations may help though they are imperfect).
"Obvious 4H" from world class player is worth more than thousand words of explanation from aspiring "expert". When I wrote the "explanation" I am usually hoping that better players here will correct me and say : "you overvalue this and undervalue this". That's the chance to improve for me.

Then again, two known and well-reputed experts answer and one says 4H wtp and the other says Pass. Both have cogent arguments behind their opinion. Sometimes it is a style question.

After you keep reading here for a while, you will likely identify the people whose opinion you can learn to trust without explanation. Even young talented experts like JLall and JDonn sometimes don't agree. Try reading The Bridge World - never in the history of their expert panels has there been a 100% unanimous answer (AFAIK, I have only read it since 1978) because styles and "approaches" - for lack of better word - are different.

[Old York]

DWM, on Jan 13 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

I am wondering what other people hope to gain by contributing to or reading the forums

To learn from the experiences of others

Unfortunately, there are many posters who always contradict each other and seldom supply a reasoned explanation
The threads on "should I open 1NT with a 5 card major" and similar, never produce evidence to support their claims. If a world class player answered "It is 58% more likely to gain, unless the major is very strong", then we have real facts on which to judge and not just random opinions

Tony

I intended (58-42) which was taken from magazine, but lost it when post was shortened.. oops, but the figure is immaterial - it was just an example

[hanp]

Old York, on Jan 13 2010, 09:29 AM, said:

If a world class player answered "It is 58% more likely to gain, unless the major is very strong", then we have real facts on which to judge and not just random opinions.

The fact that this poster would be an idiot you mean?

All possible arguments for and against opening 1NT with a 5-card major have been given a long time ago. All that remains is experience.

[Old York]

hanp, on Jan 13 2010, 03:38 PM, said:

The fact that this poster would be an idiot you mean?

This is exactly what I mean

Every book and magazine article I have ever read has given this advice, and many will contradict it
We are left with the view that it is merely a matter of opinion, and not fact

Tony

[hrothgar]

Old York, on Jan 13 2010, 05:46 PM, said:

Every book and magazine article I have ever read has given this advice, and many will contradict it

We are left with the view that it is merely a matter of opinion, and not fact

LOL

[DWM]

I know that there are often more than one correct treatment. Reading Klinger and Lawrence has taught me that.

One example Lawrence gives is should 1D-(P)-1NT be F1R or not. Here Lawrence explains both points of view and recommends one. This allows the reader to form their own opinion and use what fits best into their system.

Other problems do have less about the bidding and more about the interpretation of the one hand. An example of this is the current poll that asks what to do after p-p-4S. However, within this topic some of the explanations regarding how to use a 4NT bid and double help. The reasoning as to why some people would bid on or not helps to form views on what sort of features support what choice.

What I see as dangerous is reading WTP, 6H Obv etc on their own and trying to form my own reasoning as to why they are correct.

[Free]

Just a remark: it's funny to see some older posts where one responds with "wtp", the same question is asked a few years later and the same person gives you a different response, still with a "wtp". Basically, we sometimes don't even agree with ourselves!

[Old York]

hanp, on Jan 13 2010, 03:38 PM, said:

All possible arguments for and against opening 1NT with a 5-card major have been given a long time ago. All that remains is experience.

The reference to 5cM was only an example of the type of post which attracts most hostility. It is well known that this produces strong views, but nobody has provided definitive proof one way or another, so the argument continues.
At one time, an opening 1NT with 5cM would be seen as a psych

I would give different advice to beginners on many subjects, prefering to give advice which may be less likely to lead to disaster. Let them learn by experience

Tony

[Jlall]

It is pretty obvious that it would always be more beneficial to everyone if people posted "I find 4H to be an obviously correct bid, for reasons X Y Z."

However, sometimes people don't want to post their reasons because they have time constraints, or because they find the hand to be boring, or for whatever reasons. Is it better then for them to post "I find 4H to be an obviously correct bid" or to not post at all? I think not posting at all is clearly worse, you can at least gain some information from seeing what people would do and how clear they think it is. This information is not as much as if they would have expounded, but that isn't really relevant.

Obviously I would be a better poster if I always stated my thought process, outlined the pros and cons of each bid, and demonstrated why I came to a conclusion. I don't think it is reasonable to always expect me or anyone else to do so. I do not think that this means that posts where I don't do that are worthless.

[helene_t]

Old York, on Jan 13 2010, 03:29 PM, said:

If a world class player answered "It is 58% more likely to gain, unless the major is very strong", then we have real facts on which to judge and not just random opinions

Just made a simulation of this forum, it turned out a birthday greeting in the water cooler was 342% more likely to gain than a novice rant posted in the A/E section

[gwnn]

It's difficult to give arguments in bridge. It's like this hand. My friend didn't open 1NT on Axx AQJ Axx xxxx (this is a little fictionalized but mostly because I don't remember exactly). I told her that downgrading out of 1NT is bad because it allows them to enter the auction more easily, we will miss slams, the 1NT rebid gets too wide ranging and you have THREE ACES. She just told me that xxxx is bad and AQJ is bad and anyway look at how well it turned out we found a nice 3C partial and we'd have gone down in 3NT after opening 1no and the three aces are just 3 tricks and in NT they can be overvalued. Now I realized that 90% of this was misguided but it's just her words against mine. I could have said that even JOSH DONN national champion would say the same or 655321 who is nameless but very good at bridge and I'm sure he's one of the mastergenii of our time, but that sounds like 'my father could beat up your father' and anywaygaah. And it is always the same, there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to every bid. Should I double this contract? The advantages are that if they go down we will get a good score HOWEVER there is also the disadvantage that if they make, we will get a worse score! wow. So yes, I would double because I think my hand is good enough. If jlall will pass you may guess that he does so because he finds the hand too weak. Of course there would be some other info "I'd need another jackten to x" or "I think they redouble a lot in this particular case" but even without this, by reading a lot of these posts you can start feeling where the line should be.