[kenrexford]

Rare hand where I'd bid 2♦.

[Codo]

[quote name='The_Hog' date='Jan 12 2010, 07:34 PM'] I'm torn between 2[cl] and 2[he], but it is so problematic to lie with the Majors that I lean towards 2[cl], which might be great if it stops them from leading a club. [/QUOTE]
It might be terrible if partner overvalues Kx of Clubs. [/quote]
In what hand exactly is it a problem if he overvalues a KX of club?
Can you give me one example where we would reach 4 spade instead of 3 Spade because he overvalued this card?
Or where we reach 6 instead of 4 and this is bad?

[Trinidad]

If 2NT is not Jacoby, what is it then?

I would assume a natural GF balanced hand like it was in the old days. In that case, this is a simple problem: bid 2NT first, followed by showing the spade support.

Rik

[pirate22]

viewing all the replies-----no one has mentioed L.T.C even if J 2n/t employed,but writer stated no J 2n/t then 3 spades is the answer, if opener is minimum,he can pass--or if he fancies, because of distribution, he bids 4 spades no sweat,i would not want to bid 4 spades and murder him--- having said that if J 2n/t employed then i bid 2n/t regards

[P_Marlowe]

Trinidad, on Jan 13 2010, 03:19 AM, said:

If 2NT is not Jacoby, what is it then?

I would assume a natural GF balanced hand like it was in the old days. In that case, this is a simple problem: bid 2NT first, followed by showing the spade support.

Rik

How about 2NT is 10-12 bal? And a 2NT bid risks getting passed out?

[hanp]

My earlier 4S response in this thread was a bit facetious. Surely everybody here has some forcing raise available. But if you are playing with somebody new to the game, I don't think it is so strange to just blast game. Some of the inevitable losses you get by playing a stone age system you will get back by the non-revealing auction. The chances for slam are remote, we have no keycards.

I saw codo and pirate22 hint that they might be willing to stop below game. Even though the honors are pretty terrible, you still have 13 HCP and 4-card support, I think that stopping below game vulnerable at IMPs is quite bad.

[Codo]

hanp, on Jan 13 2010, 07:48 PM, said:

I saw codo and pirate22 hint that they might be willing to stop below game.

Han, I agree with your ideas about 4 Spade and I agree that this hand is a game force.
Stopping below game is surely wrong , I wonder how you read this into my comment.

[hanp]

It doesn't matter. Apparently I misunderstood your comment, I am relieved that you wouldn't stop below game.

[the hog]

Roland, any hand where partner thinks you really have a C suit. This is particularly valid where you are bidding tight games. let me ask you this, what is a better holding opposite the responding hand, K? or x of clubs with the corresponding values elswhere?

[helene_t]

Is 2NT forcing? Do we play some other forcing raise, say Bergen?

My first impulse was 2♦ which is where I want p to have strength but thinking more about it it's silly, if p has ♦AJ(x) it is not as good as he thinks and if he has four diamonds he will raise and it becomes a mess.

I am convinced by Han's 4♠ bid. Even opposite a good p I think it's as good as anything.

Whatever I do I don't expect p to alert it.

Yeah, J2NT is part of SAYC and it's ridiculous not to alert it, especially playing online.

[Codo]

The_Hog, on Jan 13 2010, 09:04 PM, said:

Roland, any hand where partner thinks you really have a C suit. This is particularly valid where you are bidding tight games. let me ask you this, what is a better holding opposite the responding hand, K? or x of clubs with the corresponding values elswhere?

Ron, thanks for you known statement, but can you construct hands where it really matters opposite our hand?
I cannot and I doubt you can.

[hrothgar]

P_Marlowe, on Jan 12 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jan 11 2010, 01:41 PM, said:

Comment 1:  Jacoby 2NT has always been part of SAYC.

I think you are wrong.

The following URL provides a copy of SAYC circa 1988

http://home.earthlin...hawker/sayc.htm

(This is the earliest version of the booklet that I have been able to find. I seem to recall that J2NT was part of earlier versions as well)

Jacoby 2NT is listed under the response structure to 1M openings. The precise quote is

Quote

2NT = Game-forcing raise ("Jacoby 2NT"), 13+ dummy points.
          Asks opener to show a short suit to help responder
          evaluate slam prospects.

[bid_em_up]

pirate22, on Jan 13 2010, 04:58 AM, said:

viewing all the replies-----no one has mentioed L.T.C even if J 2n/t employed,but writer stated no J 2n/t  then 3 spades is the answer, if opener is minimum,he can pass--or if he fancies, because of distribution, he bids 4 spades no sweat,i would not want to bid 4 spades and murder him--- having said that if J 2n/t employed then i bid 2n/t   regards

Huh?

It appears to me that you are saying:

If I am not playing Jacoby 2N, then I do not consider this hand to be worth a game forcing bid and will not commit to game and instead will make a bid that partner can pass, but if I AM playing Jacoby 2N, then I will force to game.

Am I reading this right?

If I am reading it correctly, then this approach is quite silly, er, sub-par (imo).

The hand is either worth committing to game or it is not. If you consider it to be a game force when playing J2N, then it is a game force even when J2N is not available.

Manufacture another forcing bid and then bid 4♠ if you have to, but you absolutely should not make a non-forcing bid (such as 3♠) that can be passed when you evaluate this hand as belonging in game if you are playing another method.

If I have misread what you said, then feel free to disregard the above.

On the given cards, I will bid 2♥ (forcing one round in SAYC iirc, not alertable) and see how the auction progresses but will not stop short of 4♠.

Edit: I suppose I should've said that I will not stop short of game as it is possible there are other games available.

[nigel_k]

Codo, on Jan 13 2010, 07:15 PM, said:

In what hand exactly is it a problem if he overvalues a KX of club?
Can you give me one example where we would reach 4 spade instead of 3 Spade because he overvalued this card?
Or where we reach 6 instead of 4 and this is bad?

Partner is always going to evaluate better if you bid a suit you have instead of one you don't have. When you bid 2♣ then support spades you are probably going to get too high on the first hand and stop too low on the second one.

AJ10xx
x
AJxx
KQx

AKxxx
Axx
Axxx
x

[P_Marlowe]

hrothgar, on Jan 13 2010, 08:13 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jan 12 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jan 11 2010, 01:41 PM, said:

Comment 1:  Jacoby 2NT has always been part of SAYC.

I think you are wrong.

The following URL provides a copy of SAYC circa 1988

http://home.earthlin...hawker/sayc.htm

(This is the earliest version of the booklet that I have been able to find. I seem to recall that J2NT was part of earlier versions as well)

Jacoby 2NT is listed under the response structure to 1M openings. The precise quote is

Quote

2NT = Game-forcing raise ("Jacoby 2NT"), 13+ dummy points.
          Asks opener to show a short suit to help responder
          evaluate slam prospects.

Ok, I will try to remember this.

I am pretty sure, I did not know this before, so I learned at least 1 thing today,
not sure, it is of any use, but it may serve me at least here on BBF.

With kind regards
Marlowe