[ochinko]

Scoring: IMP

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This is your hand, and partner opens 1♠ after the dealer passes. Your RHO passes as well. Your system is closest to SAYC, and you don't play Jacoby 2NT. If you're ok with these limitations what is your bid, and do you think it should be alerted?

As a side question, is JNT considered part of SAYC nowadays?

[nigel_k]

I would bid 2♥ which could be a problem if 1♠-2♥-4♥-4♠ is a cue bid, but will be ok in most other sequences and is best at helping partner evaluate. I doubt it needs to be alerted and the conditions suggest you have no partnership agreement anyway so there's nothing to alert. I'm pretty sure that Jacoby 2NT is in SAYC but you can use google. If the first few hits all say the same thing then that is probably the answer

[hrothgar]

Comment 1: Jacoby 2NT has always been part of SAYC.

Comment 2: This hand would appear to be worth a GF opposite a 1♠ opening. If I am playing "standard" with no way to make a GF raise of partner's suit, my only real option is to make a 2/1.

I don't consider it obvious whether 2♣ or 2♥ is the better call. I lean towards 2♣ since it might deter an awkward lead and its much cheaper.

[aguahombre]

As to the side question: On OKB, if they declared SAYC, they don't even require an alert for J2N, and don't alert the follow-ups, even though nobody plays them the same way. But, 2/1 players are still required to alert J2N. (True --been nailed both ways on this --by not knowing undisclosed opp methods, and by not alerting it our way.)

Main question: 3S, not caring whether pard thinks it is invite or force. they always bid 4, anyway. If I have to bid 2C (2nd choice), I cannot follow up with a minimu spade bid, because that is only invitational in SAYC --so I might as well have bid 3S the first time and not drawn pard's attention to my excellent club suit. 2C, then jump to 3S, should sound like a better hand. 2C, then jumping to 4S would sound like a picture bid.

[gwnn]

2♣. never 2♥

[hotShot]

With the restrictions given, I'll just bid 4♠.

[Codo]

Easy 2 club never 2 Heart- oh this was said before? So it must be right.

With 2 ♥ you have zero sequences where it wins but at least one where it lose. With 2 club you make a club lead less likely and can dscribe your hand well after any rebid from partner.

[the hog]

Without a forcing 2NT available, I will bid 2H. NEVER 2C. At least show where your values are. opener will overestimate C honours and underestimate a C stiff if you bid 2C.

[peachy]

I wouldn't begin playing until I know what we do to show a GF raise of partner's major. If only SAYC was agreed, J2NT is and always has been part of SAYC.

In the posted circumstances, I'll just make the cheapest 2/1 bid and jump to game next round. Whatever I do, none of it is alertable.

[Fluffy]

the reason not to bid 4♠ seems to be to explore a slam, and you will be better placed if you bid 2♥ than anything else. I don't see a big point in bidding 2♣ except if you reach the slam on pure strengt.

[gwnn]

for example when we don't bid it on pure strength, partner might count 13 tricks that aren't really there.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

In other words, you need to invent a bid - so be it: 2C.

And No, there is no need to alert this, you could of course, but No.
Pratner will treat the 2C as natural, and thats it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: 2C vs. 2H - If you have to lie, it is always better to lie in a minor,
also partner may not expect xxx in clubs, but given the agreement set,
we are basically forced to bid 2C with xxxx, so I wont mislead partner.
But I mislead p, if I bid 2H, since this showes 5.

Now I always can convert hearts to spade, but without prior discussion,
it may be hard to convince p, that we have a REAL spade fit, but no REAL
heart fit.

[P_Marlowe]

hrothgar, on Jan 11 2010, 01:41 PM, said:

Comment 1: Jacoby 2NT has always been part of SAYC.

I think you are wrong.

Jacoby got added with a revision of the SAYC booklet, dont ask me
when this happened, but I am pretty sure that in the original version
a 2NT response was natural.

Of ocurse this is a theoretical discussion, since this assumes, that both
sides are sure their counterpart does know the booklet (and the same
version of the booklet).
And if you are certain, than you had a lot of opportunities to discuss things,
and maybe you also discussed to add / drop Jacoby 2NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

ochinko, on Jan 11 2010, 01:25 PM, said:

<snip>
As a side question, is JNT considered part of SAYC nowadays?

If you look at the response here, the answer is clear cut, but I would
doubt that it is that clear at all.

As always, it is a matter of level, and who you are asking.

Playing with a stranger, having just agreed to play SAYC, I would never
make a 2NT response to a 1M opening, for starters:
What do I know, which response schema he uses, even if we will assume
2NT as Jacoby, there are at least 3 version out there, and depending on
to which school th regional pro is belonging, they are all likely.

No way, keep it simlpe, use the old advice - keep it simple, and if needed
lie in a minor.
Oh, by the way, there is even a growing trend, that a 2C rebid could be
based on a strong bal. hand with fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Old York]

After viewing your profile, I would bid 3♣ (Bergen)
This gives you the opportunity to raise to game later to show the extra strength
Given your methods, this is nearest to the truth about your hand, but nothing is ideal

Tony

[Hanoi5]

Quote

Comment 1: Jacoby 2NT has always been part of SAYC.

This is not true.

I'm torn between 2♣ and 2♥, but it is so problematic to lie with the Majors that I lean towards 2♣, which might be great if it stops them from leading a club.

[the hog]

Hanoi5, on Jan 12 2010, 05:18 PM, said:

Quote

Comment 1: Jacoby 2NT has always been part of SAYC.

This is not true.

I'm torn between 2♣ and 2♥, but it is so problematic to lie with the Majors that I lean towards 2♣, which might be great if it stops them from leading a club.

It might be terrible if partner overvalues Kx of Clubs.

[Fluffy]

or ♣QJx

[hanp]

Automatic 4♠.

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on Jan 11 2010, 01:46 PM, said:

On OKB, if they declared SAYC, they don't even require an alert for J2N, and don't alert the follow-ups, even though nobody plays them the same way. But, 2/1 players are still required to alert J2N.

Let me get this straight. Whether Jacoby 2NT requires an alert depends on what system you're playing? Oh, let me guess. SAYC is not alertable, any deviation from SAYC (such as I guess a natural but GF 2/1) is alertable. I hope they have a clearly defined version of SAYC on which to base this. Oh, apparently they don't, since "nobody plays [the followups to J2NT the same way". Sheesh. Hell of a way to run a railroad.