[jdonn]

I'm aware of Bill James. I admit to not reading that so if he covers any of these questions I'll be impressed. Some I mentioned some I didn't.

How do you weigh championships? Should they count more during your best years than your worst years?
How do you weigh being a pioneer? First black / latino / gay? / amputee / deaf / etc. player in baseball / major leagues / AL or NL / at a position / on a team / etc.?
How do you weigh leadership?
How do you weigh fielding? Errors aren't enough, for example what if I have fewer errors because I don't even try at plays that will be close like diving for fly balls? What if I'm an outfielder next to an exceptionally fast center fielder so I have less area to cover?
How do you weigh context? For example, exceptional play with an injury. Or when your team is one out away from losing?

There is just no way, even if you can adequately "count the stats" (and the fact this has improved so much recently just shows how inaccurate doing so would long have been) that you should judge acceptance to the hall of fame on a formula. In conclusion I didn't think it was possible in this thread but I have managed to hijack it.

[mike777]

Those questions sound like stats....I think you may be able to just look at the stats.

If we dont have a good way to quantify important questions yet, do the best one can.

[Al_U_Card]

Bill James' Almanachs and his Sabrmetric methods were really fascinating to see how he could determine and evaluate the performance of a team or player based on his "standard" models.

[Lobowolf]

jdonn, on Jan 13 2010, 05:04 PM, said:

I'm aware of Bill James. I admit to not reading that so if he covers any of these questions I'll be impressed. Some I mentioned some I didn't.

How do you weigh championships? Should they count more during your best years than your worst years?
How do you weigh being a pioneer? First black / latino / gay? / amputee / deaf / etc. player in baseball / major leagues / AL or NL / at a position / on a team / etc.?
How do you weigh leadership?
How do you weigh fielding? Errors aren't enough, for example what if I have fewer errors because I don't even try at plays that will be close like diving for fly balls? What if I'm an outfielder next to an exceptionally fast center fielder so I have less area to cover?
How do you weigh context? For example, exceptional play with an injury. Or when your team is one out away from losing?

There is just no way, even if you can adequately "count the stats" (and the fact this has improved so much recently just shows how inaccurate doing so would long have been) that you should judge acceptance to the hall of fame on a formula. In conclusion I didn't think it was possible in this thread but I have managed to hijack it.

There's some good statistic work with respect to defense that goes way beyond fielding percentage (e.g. the "range factor" which takes into account the potential problem you mention about not getting to, or trying for, many balls). Position adjustments are important, also (and have been deciphered, to a large extent), e.g. Alomar, as a very good defensive middle infielder vs. Dawson, as a very good defensive outfielder.

Batting average vs. RBI is also reasonably well decipherable via a "Runs Created" method largely pioneered by James (as was the Range Factor). There are a few different Runs Created formulas, but they all do a pretty good job of contextualizing offensive stats between people whose strengths differ (e.g. power hitters vs. guys who are good at getting on base).

Different eras have also been normalized to a large extent. Different length careers is a bit of a judgment call; it doesn't really require statistical normalization, but different people have different ideas in the HOF discussion about whether it's better to be good for 20 years or great for 10.

I think it's impossible to quantify stuff like "First black," or being deaf, or leadership; the stuff that could conceivably be quantified, though (Good-fielding, high-on base percentage shortstop vs. great-fielding power hitting first baseban) has been quantified REALLY well by James and those who have come after him.

I'd highly recommend any of the annual old Baseball Abstracts as very entertaining, very enlightening reading.

[Aberlour10]

[european-modus-on]What to hell these american guys are talking here about?[european-modus-off]

[luke warm]

Lobowolf, on Jan 13 2010, 02:30 PM, said:

Andre Dawson and not Roberto Alomar?  That ain't right.

nothing against dawson, but imo you're exactly right... he's my 2nd baseman on my all time team... as far as quantification (stats and how to judge them), i agree with josh that some of these things seem too subjective to judge... as far as steroids (and i know i'm probably in a minority), i could care less about it... barry bonds was one of the greatest hitters i ever saw - and i've seen more than a few, quite apart from his (maybe) roid-induced power, and if i were voting he'd sail in

[ggwhiz]

Raines isn't in yet, Damon will be but he's not mentioned yet cause he's not eligible until he stops playing. Dawson took 9 years(?) which is ok by me.

Currently, 500 odd people vote with their hearts and stats are used to highlight their errors. I believe Bill James material is so comprehensive that it includes things like "fielding range", ie. the number of balls the shortstop actually got to.

Maybe Bill should get a veto vote?

[Lobowolf]

Did you know, by the way, that Mark McGwire had a higher career on-base percentage than Willie Mays? On any given at bat, over the course of their careers, Mays was more likely to make an out than McGwire.

[Al_U_Card]

Ahhhh baseball, does it get any better?

[luke warm]

Lobowolf, on Jan 13 2010, 06:00 PM, said:

Did you know, by the way, that Mark McGwire had a higher career on-base percentage than Willie Mays? On any given at bat, over the course of their careers, Mays was more likely to make an out than McGwire.

and bonds far distanced both... 5th or 6th all time i think

[jdonn]

luke warm, on Jan 13 2010, 06:27 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Jan 13 2010, 06:00 PM, said:

Did you know, by the way, that Mark McGwire had a higher career on-base percentage than Willie Mays?  On any given at bat, over the course of their careers, Mays was more likely to make an out than McGwire.

and bonds far distanced both... 5th or 6th all time i think

Well of course, he was intentionally walked so often...

[Fluffy]

Al_U_Card, on Jan 13 2010, 11:16 PM, said:

Ahhhh baseball, does it get any better?

Europeans can try a simultaneos soccer discussion, would you like it?.

I loved watching australian football, it was like rugby/american football but with no line of scrimage, very dynamic

[gwnn]

Liverpool and Barca both out of their respective cups!

[Lobowolf]

Jlall, on Jan 6 2010, 04:32 AM, said:

So I learned lobowolf is a real person recently, and was spotted at a regional! Who knew

Phil knew, but that's about it.

Clee must have narced me out. They kicked our chit, too.

Rumors of my existence are greatly exaggerated.

[Aberlour10]

Unfortunately the average European knows more about cheese production in Wisconsin than about baseball, so let us talk about the Bundesliga! Will Hoffenheim be able to tie the match in Munich at the weekend? My bet strategy depends on!

[gwnn]

hey do they still have dzeko?

[Winstonm]

This thread is un-hijackable: whichever way it goes IS the topic.

Quote

what about the greatest fielding first baseman..

Bill Buckner?

[Aberlour10]

gwnn, on Jan 13 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

hey do they still have dzeko?

He stays in Wolfsburg till the season end..then ..who knows..

[gwnn]

so have they even scored a goal this season? i know i could google it but we have to stop all this baseball

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Jan 13 2010, 07:08 PM, said:

This thread is un-hijackable: whichever way it goes IS the topic.

Quote

what about the greatest fielding first baseman..

Bill Buckner?

Keith Hernandez?