[vuroth]

Playing HSGTs...

1♥ 1♠
2♠ 3♦

3♦ is HSGT, right?

Ok now.

1♥ 1♠
2♠ 3♦
3♠ 4♠

3♦ was clearly some sort of slam try, right? But was it a second suit, or do I now reinterpret it as control showing?

[Codo]

No need to interpret. Partner asked you a question. You answered. He decided to bid game. You pass. It is so easy.

However, had he bid anything but 4 spade, you should cooperate and bid a control.

[vuroth]

So then
1♥ 1♠
2♠ 3♣
3♠ 4♣

3♣ was HSGT, and 4♣ was control? Or are they now both control bids, showing first and second?

1♥ 1♠
2♠ 3♣
3♠ 4♦

Has partner shown a club control? A diamond control?

[pooltuna]

Codo, on Dec 15 2009, 09:46 AM, said:

No need to interpret. Partner asked you a question. You answered. He decided to bid game. You pass. It is so easy.

However, had he bid anything but 4 spade, you should cooperate and bid a control.

This assumes partner will use bad tactics. If he just wanted to bid game he should do so over 2♠ not give away information or at least a chance for opps to exchange information (X of 3♦) consequently 3♦ should either be a slam try or game try. As you noted he made no further qbid and consequently I would assume he had nothing else to Q with the implication that he holds very good ♦ and ♠

[vuroth]

pooltuna, on Dec 15 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

As you noted he made no further qbid and consequently I would assume he had nothing else to Q with the implication that he holds very good ♦ and ♠

Ahhhhh.......

I understand.

Here's the problem I had last night that got me thinking about this:

Scoring: MP

1♦ P 1♠ 2♥
2♠ P ?

---

I really like my hand, and would like to bid something stronger than 4♠. I couldn't figure out the best way to make my intentions clear (because I couldn't figure out what the above sequences meant).

I suppose I could have just asked "how should I bid next", but I'd like to understand all the possible auctions for when this next comes up.

[pooltuna]

vuroth, on Dec 15 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Dec 15 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

As you noted he made no further qbid and consequently I would assume he had nothing else to Q with the implication that he holds very good ♦ and ♠

Ahhhhh.......

I understand.

Here's the problem I had last night that got me thinking about this:

Scoring: MP

1♦ P 1♠ 2♥
2♠ P ?

---

I really like my hand, and would like to bid something stronger than 4♠. I couldn't figure out the best way to make my intentions clear (because I couldn't figure out what the above sequences meant).

I suppose I could have just asked "how should I bid next", but I'd like to understand all the possible auctions for when this next comes up.

I think your best choice would have been 4♥, as a splinter

[jjbrr]

4♥ is definitely most descriptive. 3♥ or 3♦ (which should be forcing) would probably also work fine. Just some kind of forcing bid will get more info from partner.

As for the original question, partner is probably looking for the perfect kind of hand from you. The type of thing where if you have 2 aces, he can count 12 laydown tricks, but if you have a less-than-perfect hand the 5 level could be in huge trouble.

[Phil]

vuroth, on Dec 15 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Dec 15 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

As you noted he made no further qbid and consequently I would assume he had nothing else to Q with the implication that he holds very good ♦ and ♠

Ahhhhh.......

I understand.

Here's the problem I had last night that got me thinking about this:

Scoring: MP

1♦ P 1♠ 2♥
2♠ P ?

---

I really like my hand, and would like to bid something stronger than 4♠. I couldn't figure out the best way to make my intentions clear (because I couldn't figure out what the above sequences meant).

I suppose I could have just asked "how should I bid next", but I'd like to understand all the possible auctions for when this next comes up.

Assuming you play support doubles, I think this hand is too good for a splinter, unless you were going to make another try over pard's signoff. Can you blame pard for signing off in 4♠ with: KQxx Kxx KQxx xx?

I would start with 3♣ because this rates to elicit a 3♦ call a lot of the time, which is great news for us.

[kenrexford]

There seems to be some confusion here.

After this bid-and-raise, 3♦ was either a game try or a slam try, initially. When Opener bid 3♠, he declined the game try. What next?

If Responder had a game try hand, he passes. That seems rather obvious. So, any call means that he was thinking about slam.

However, 4♠ by Responder means that he is no longer interested in slam opposite a hand that is too weak to accept the game try. This is not some magic picture bid. It is simply giving up on slam.

Had Responder bid something else, then Responder is interested in slam even opposite a minimum, and Opener should react accordingly. That means not signing off simply because Opener has a minimum, as that has been announced already.

As an aside, but related. If Opener is willing to accept the game try, I think he should make some bid that saves space in the event that Responder really had a slam try. My technique is to save space by immediately cuebidding, with the addition of a 3NT call to show serious acceptance of the game-try suit. Other methods might work, also, such as a catch-all 3NT or some other call.

[quiddity]

It's a matter of partnership agreement whether 3♦ is a help-suit game try. It might be better to use it as a try for 3NT, especially if the raise to 2♠ can be made with 3-card support.

[kenrexford]

quiddity, on Dec 15 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

It's a matter of partnership agreement whether 3♦ is a help-suit game try. It might be better to use it as a try for 3NT, especially if the raise to 2♠ can be made with 3-card support.

On that note...

A nice agreement that I have with one partner:

New suits are real suits. GT or ST (usually ST). Stuff over that.

2NT is a general GT. When partner may have insufficient support (3-card), 2NT asks for clarification of that issue. 2NT is the only route to 3NT. The answers, btw, depend on style as to when you raise with three. As we only raise with three when holding reverse pattern (too weak for a reverse, but typically 5431 with 5 in the opened minor and 4 in a higher suit), our unwind is that rebidding the minor shows THAT hand -- three-card support, 4 in a higher suit, and 5 in the opened minor.

[Echognome]

Phil, on Dec 15 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

vuroth, on Dec 15 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Dec 15 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

As you noted he made no further qbid and consequently I would assume he had nothing else to Q with the implication that he holds very good ♦ and ♠

Ahhhhh.......

I understand.

Here's the problem I had last night that got me thinking about this:

Scoring: MP

1♦ P 1♠ 2♥
2♠ P ?

---

I really like my hand, and would like to bid something stronger than 4♠. I couldn't figure out the best way to make my intentions clear (because I couldn't figure out what the above sequences meant).

I suppose I could have just asked "how should I bid next", but I'd like to understand all the possible auctions for when this next comes up.

Assuming you play support doubles, I think this hand is too good for a splinter, unless you were going to make another try over pard's signoff. Can you blame pard for signing off in 4♠ with: KQxx Kxx KQxx xx?

I would start with 3♣ because this rates to elicit a 3♦ call a lot of the time, which is great news for us.

I would splinter with this hand, intending to make one more try after a sign-off. I'd rather partner be able to evaluate his hand, knowing the nature of mine. I don't particular see why I want to take control. Sometimes partner doesn't sign off with 4♠ and if he keycards, then I can definitely show my hand.

Of course, partner is somewhat limited by his 2♠ call, but I will have made a slam try. I just feel we are in a better position if I can describe my hand with a splinter. If I start with a 3♣ game try, I'm afraid the auction might become convoluted very quickly.

[kenrexford]

On the actual hand, the bidding would be fine.

1♦-P-1♠-2♥
2♠*-P-3♦**-P-
3♠***-P-3NT****-P-
?

*assumed to be 4-card support
**long suit GT/ST
***not interested
****serious interest

This start looks really good. If Opener has a hand with good trumps and good diamonds, like ♠KQxx/♦KQxx, which is what you want, he will cuebid 4♦ now, and the slam is bid.

If you want to cue 4♣ instead of 3NT, because 3NT means something else, that's fine too.

[Siegmund]

Something to keep in mind is that one of the great things about game tries - the reason we use them and not just 1-2-3 mom and pop raises - in that we are telling partner "hey, your queens in these two suits are likely tricks, in the other two suits not so good; in light of that information, do you like your hand or not?" It's a different question than a cuebidding auction copes with.

A sequence like the one OP posted means that asker was interested in a slam if answerer's queens were all working AND a few other good things came up. After answerer said, sorry, my minor honours are badly placed, asker didn't have slam interest anymore.

I would NOT reinterpret the game try as a cuebid, if asker subsequently cuebids (in the context of aces-first cuebidding.) It's conceivable that if you freely cuebid kings, you could agree not to make HSGTs on suits without high honors. Shrug.

[Codo]

pooltuna, on Dec 16 2009, 12:23 AM, said:

Codo, on Dec 15 2009, 09:46 AM, said:

No need to interpret. Partner asked you a question. You answered. He decided to bid game. You pass. It is so easy.

However, had he bid anything but 4 spade, you should cooperate and bid a control.

This assumes partner will use bad tactics. If he just wanted to bid game he should do so over 2♠ not give away information or at least a chance for opps to exchange information (X of 3♦) consequently 3♦ should either be a slam try or game try. As you noted he made no further qbid and consequently I would assume he had nothing else to Q with the implication that he holds very good ♦ and ♠

No way.

He made a slam try.
He asked: Do you have help in diamonds.
You answered: No
Okay then 4 spade is the limit.

No bad tactics ad all, just easy and logical stuff.