[mike777]

mcphee, on Dec 17 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Seems a majority of players like the idea of the 3 major jump setting trumps and demanding a cue. I am not of that camp. So we would see 2C 2D, 2S 3S, 3N (big slam try) 4C, 7S.

"2C - 2D! ( waiting, but positive )
.............[ 2H! = immediate bust; 3C = 5+cd suit w/2 of top 3 ]

2S - 3S (nice... this allows for cuebidding)
3NT! ( Serious ) - 4C
4NT - 5C ( 0 or 3 ); 5D would have shown ♥A = place for losing♦.
6D ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask ) - 6NT ( dQ )
7S "

-------------



Actually the OP bares your auction.

[Old York]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 17 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

billw55, on Dec 17 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

Old York, on Dec 17 2009, 02:43 AM, said:

...

2♣ - 3♣
3♠ - 4♠
7♠ - p

...

I am a strong believer that beginners should be taught to fully understand natural bidding first, gadgets can be added later

Agree with this. Isn't it easier when you just bid what you have? Once north gives a positive response and supports, bidding 7 is almost childishly simple.

The problem with 3C is, that openers first real bid is on the 3 level.
Assume for one second, that opener has a bal. hand, he basically has to bid 3NT.
And even if you happen to agree, that 3C denies a 4 card major, you still should
be able to check for a possible 5-3 fit in the major.

Assume for one second, that opener has a 6-4 hand, he can show his
6 carder, but his 4 carder gets lost.

And do you really want to play clubs, if opener has xxx in clubs?
With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I am also a firm believer in bidding, what you have.

Responder has the perfect hand for a positive response. Support for all 4 suits and balanced enough to play very well in no trumps

If opener has a 5 card major, then it can be bid at the 3 level, plenty of time to bid notrumps later

If opener is 6-4, responder can support any suit rebid

How often would you open 2♣ with xxx and how often would you want to raise clubs with this holding?

A positive response is not a waste of space, it often saves space
If 2♦ means nothing, then it is a waste of a good bid
The main reason that 2♦ is so popular is that many 2♣ openings have been diluted
And how can you hope to bid the grand with the hand I suggested?

♠Jxx ♥KJ ♦xxx ♣Kxxxx

Bridge is a partnership game. If you have absolutely no interest in partner's hand, then open 7♠

Tony

[kenrexford]

hanp, on Dec 17 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

Ken, if opener did bid 4D, wouldn't you bid 4H (last train) as responder?

No, because I have a simple, and reasonable, rule.

Last Train is only bid by the "serious" partner. The non-serious partner bids real cues. 3♠ by definition makes Opener the "serious" partner.

This is sort of a "captaincy" issue, also.

[jdonn]

After 2♣ 2♦ 3♠ 4♣, I would never stop short of 7♠ as opener. This is eerily similar to the other thread but the chances are even better since the opponents haven't preempted. Can you check any of heart ace, club KJxx or Kxxxx, diamond queen, doubleton diamond, KTxx or Kxxx of clubs coming in, jack of diamonds in dummy with queen falling, heart lead setting up a trick in dummy, heart ruffing finesse, xxx of diamonds and Kx of clubs, misdefense on the run of 12 tricks, minor suit squeeze, JT of diamonds with a finesse.... show me the system that can find that, and when you do I'll stop taking a chance on grands with a million chances. Until that day, people should just be practical, and not try to avoid a contract with that many chances.

And making a positive response on Kxxxx of a minor is awful, no one do it!

[Old York]

7♠ could be completely wrong. It could be that 7♣ is the correct contract, or even 7♦. If responder is never allowed to show his suit, how can you get there?

♠- ♥KJx ♦QJxx ♣KJxxxx

A trump loser is possible in 7♠

Tony

edit: No bidding system is perfect, if it was this game would be akin to tic-tac-toe, impossible to win until an opponent makes a mistake

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Dec 17 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

...Can you check any of heart ace, club KJxx or Kxxxx, diamond queen, doubleton diamond, KTxx or Kxxx of clubs coming in, jack of diamonds in dummy with queen falling, heart lead setting up a trick in dummy, heart ruffing finesse, xxx of diamonds and Kx of clubs, misdefense on the run of 12 tricks, minor suit squeeze, JT of diamonds with a finesse.... show me the system that can find that, and when you do I'll stop taking a chance on grands with a million chances. Until that day, people should just be practical, and not try to avoid a contract with that many chances...

Soooooo tempting. All right, let's see. I'm talking out of order.

Can you check any of heart ace

Bidding 4♦ and not hearing 4♥ denies the heart Ace. If Responder bids 4♥, then 4NT confirms that question.

diamond queen, doubleton diamond

If the heart Ace is eliminated because Responder has no heart control at all, then the cuebidding sequence finds out if Responder has third-round diamond control. If Responder shows a heart control, but this ends up not being the Ace of hearts, then the 4NT sequences find out about the Queen, and a responsible partner with a doubleton and spade length should "lie."

club KJxx or Kxxxx, KTxx or Kxxx of clubs coming in, jack of diamonds in dummy with queen falling, heart lead setting up a trick in dummy, heart ruffing finesse, xxx of diamonds and Kx of clubs, misdefense on the run of 12 tricks, minor suit squeeze, JT of diamonds with a finesse.... show me the system that can find that

This set of possibilities should not be grouped with the others if the others can be eliminated. You end up, then, with the question being whether a grand on this set of possibilities is good enough alone. Some of these are "handled" by partner simply accepting grand moves on general power principles.

So, I think you are underestimating bidding ability far too much.

[jdonn]

Old York, on Dec 17 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

7♠ could be completely wrong. It could be that 7♣ is the correct contract, or even 7♦. If responder is never allowed to show his suit, how can you get there?

♠- ♥KJx ♦QJxx ♣KJxxxx

- KJx QJxx KJxxxx is a much better original 3♣ bid than Jxx QTx Qx Kxxxx!

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Dec 17 2009, 01:48 PM, said:

This set of possibilities should not be grouped with the others if the others can be eliminated.

I didn't realize there was a forum code of conduct regarding how to group possibilities, that must be interpreted by someone who may not fully understand the premise.

[hanp]

Ken, I think your rule is reasonable indeed. How about a 5S by responder then? Would that do justive to the hand?

[kenrexford]

hanp, on Dec 17 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

Ken, I think your rule is reasonable indeed. How about a 5S by responder then? Would that do justive to the hand?

I'm not sure that I follow. When would Responder bid 5♠? I assume that you mean in this sequence:

2♣-P-2♦-P-
3♠(forced so far)-P-4♣-P-
4♦-P-5♠?


That's an interesting call. By not bidding 4♥, Responder will have denied a heart control. Unilaterally bypassing 4♠ means that Responder has just cause for interest.

What calls above 4♠ mean for Responder depends on agreement.

4NT seems odd as a RKCB call. Responder should never be captain in this sequence. So, I guess 4NT is what I usually mean for 4NT -- a trump control. That also, however, would be strange in the context of Opener having shown solid trumps. But, I suppose 4NT then should show unexpected spade length and some sort of distributional value.

5♣, then, would deny that, in theory. So, I would expect that 5♣ should show "something more" in clubs. Whatever that "something more" should be, bypassing 5♣ would seem to deny that.

5♦ would seem to be a straight-forward cue. So, bypassing 5♦ simply denies a diamond control.

5♥ would be weird. But, as a jump, I suppose we start kicking into picture bids. The same would seem to be the case with a 5♠ jump.

So, assuming that, it seems to me that the necessary lack of diamond control (per the leap) and my own general principles as to picture bids, and the generally accepted ideas of pictures bids, alll combined to convince me of the following (after the 4♦ call):

1. 5♥ actually shows a heart control, in a shortness form, with extra length (trick source) in clubs.

2. 5♠ denies a heart control but shows a trick source in clubs that was not right for an initial leap directly over 3♠ and not good enough for a positive response.

[Old York]

jdonn, on Dec 17 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

Old York, on Dec 17 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

7♠ could be completely wrong. It could be that 7♣ is the correct contract, or even 7♦. If responder is never allowed to show his suit, how can you get there?

♠- ♥KJx ♦QJxx ♣KJxxxx

- KJx QJxx KJxxxx is a much better original 3♣ bid than Jxx QTx Qx Kxxxx!

They are both about the same.
From the point of view of expected support for partner's suit, then the original hand is better.... that is why I was forced to add the extras to compensate for the Spade void, not to prove that 7♣ is good
Natural bidding requires good hand evaluation and re-valuation. By suggesting 3♣ I have evaluated the potential of the entire hand, not the club suit in isolation

Tony

[P_Marlowe]

Old York, on Dec 17 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

Responder has the perfect hand for a positive response. Support for all 4 suits and balanced enough to play very well in no trumps

If opener has a 5 card major, then it can be bid at the 3 level, plenty of time to bid notrumps later

If opener is 6-4, responder can support any suit rebid

How often would you open 2♣ with xxx and how often would you want to raise clubs with this holding?

If opener is 6-4, he starts to describe his shape with his first real bid
on the 3 level.
And if he is bal. he still needs to show his strength, 3C removes the option
for opener to communicate his strength, since he does not have the choice
between 2NT and 3NT.
3C kills a whole level, so it should be a serious attempt to play in clubs, which
means, repsonder should be delighted to find opener with xxx.

Now I am not against a pos. response with reponders hand, but it aint 3C.

The pos. response, which comes to mind playing American standard methods
is 2NT, which basically tells opener I am bal., have (half)-stopper in every suit,
and 2NT may even be limited to 8-10.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Old York]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 18 2009, 12:40 AM, said:

The pos. response, which comes to mind playing American standard methods
is 2NT, which basically tells opener I am bal., have (half)-stopper in every suit,
and 2NT may even be limited to 8-10.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Thanks for the input, Uwe

I agree that the Sayc positive response should be 2NT, but the bid is unlimited
It shows a "balanced" hand with 8+hcp with no top limit
You are correct to say that it would be preferable to 3♣ because Sayc insists on 2 of 3 top honours in clubs for this bid, but 2NT normally denies a 5 card suit, so nothing is perfect
The European style is not restricted by such limitations, some 8 point hands are worth a positive, and some 10 point hands are best bid with a 2♦ waiting bid

My main argument is against the tendancy to respond 2♦ on almost every hand. A positive response is not only game forcing, but also a mild slam try, so opener is safe to bid a quantitative 4NT when response is 2NT, or any other stronger bid, so the question of conserving bidding space is an illusion

Best wishes
Tony

[Cascade]

hanp, on Dec 18 2009, 08:18 AM, said:

Ken, I think your rule is reasonable indeed. How about a 5S by responder then? Would that do justive to the hand?

I wouldn't be bidding 4♠ with considerable undisclosed values. 5♠ as a general quantitative bid without a control to show seems to make life easy for opener.