[Flame]

Scoring: MP

1♦ (P) 1♥ (P)
2♦ (P) 2♠ (P)
3NT (P) ???

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scoring is MP, do you bid more to try for slam, or passing ?

Would you bid differently (skiping thew heart for inv 2d ? or not bidding 2sp) ?
Would your answer be different for imp ?

Thx

[luke warm]

misclick

i'd pass, tho it wouldn't take much more for me to bid 4♦ rkc

[Trpltrbl]

I am passing unless it is last hand and I need the imps to win.
Pd has minimum hand with 2♦ and then later he has a max for his minimum hand, about 14 HCP.
He needs all the perfect cards and distribution, my pd's never have them.

Mike

[the hog]

Pass, at any form of the game.

[Trpltrbl]

3 NT sounds to me pd has very few aces and mostly secondary stoppers in suits.
If I wanted to go for slam, pd needs to have something like Ax Ax Qxxxxx Axx.
Possible, but I like my current pd and don't wanna lose him looking for insane slams.
Even game might not make

Mike

[Free]

pass, what else?

[Chamaco]

At Matchpoints, either pass (normal option) or bash in 6♦ if i need a swing.
Certainly not bidding to investigate slam and then stop in 5♦, a sure bottom.

However, I have one loser too many to make me gamble, and 3NT bid by pard suggests wasted clubs values.

[Fluffy]

All you need for slam is 2 aces and singleton ♥, and given the maximum partner´s hand singleton ♥ nearly means 2 aces as well.

Given the case it could be that kind of hand where you win 6♦ while you go down in 3NT.

The problem is there is no real way to find it (unless you wanna bid 4♥ and look at partner´s face ).

We know partner´s suit is worthless, these means he could have up to 17 HCP ,I think it is worth a try.

[luis]

Abstain, what the hell is 2♠ ??

[Chamaco]

Fluffy, on Jul 5 2004, 12:37 PM, said:

All you need for slam is 2 aces and singleton ♥,  and given the maximum partner´s hand singleton ♥ nearly means 2 aces as well.

Given the case it could be that kind of hand where you win 6♦ while you go down in 3NT.

We know pard has not 4+ clubs by the bidding. If he has 4 clubs and chose to rebid diamonds (a bad suit) he must be super weak.
We also know he has not 4 spades
We know he has a club stopper.

Hence he cannot have a singleton H unless he has the perfect hand with 6331/7321 etc. Unfortunately my partners tend to hold the perfect hand for slams only when I do not bid them


More seriously, going down in 3Nt instead of 6♦ making would not be the first time (like going down in a 29 hcp game), I think it is a matter of percentage and about not going against the field in close calls at MP unless a swing is needed

[Flame]

luis, on Jul 5 2004, 07:42 AM, said:

Abstain, what the hell is 2♠ ??

2sp ment to show some power in spade to help partner bid 3nt if he got something in club.
How should i'v bid it ?
3D doesnt sound like forcing to me.

[Trpltrbl]

Flame, on Jul 5 2004, 08:22 AM, said:

luis, on Jul 5 2004, 07:42 AM, said:

Abstain, what the hell is 2♠ ??

2sp ment to show some power in spade to help partner bid 3nt if he got something in club.
How should i'v bid it ?
3D doesnt sound like forcing to me.

Forcing with an 11 count ?
I think if you bid 3♦, it should show about 10-11 HCP with ♦ fit, isn't that what you have ?

Mike

[luis]

Flame, on Jul 5 2004, 01:22 PM, said:

luis, on Jul 5 2004, 07:42 AM, said:

Abstain, what the hell is 2♠ ??

2sp ment to show some power in spade to help partner bid 3nt if he got something in club.
How should i'v bid it ?
3D doesnt sound like forcing to me.

Sorry I should have asked what is 2♠ AND what is 1♥.
Playing inverted minors this is a normal 1♦-2♦ start. Without inverted minors you have to use whatever bid you have to show a forcing hand with support for diamonds, some play 1♦-2♦, others 1♦-3♣ and I've seen other variations.
If you don't have a forcing raise then 1) Change the system because you NEED a forcing raise. 2) Bid 1♠ over 1♦, since the hand is either a diamond slam or a 3NT game better show your pd where your real values are.

Luis

[Flame]

I'm playing inverted minors , i just dont play them with 4 card major.
Do you complitely giving up on the heart suit when you bid 2d, or you can get it back later ? (how ?)

And mike i thought this worth a game vs a minimum opening, its just a matter of hand eveluation.

[luis]

Flame, on Jul 5 2004, 01:46 PM, said:

I'm playing inverted minors , i just dont play them with 4 card major.
Do you complitely giving up on the heart suit when you bid 2d, or you can get it back later ? (how ?)

And mike i thought this worth a game vs a minimum opening, its just a matter of hand eveluation.

When you have AKJxx of diamonds and pd opens 1♦ looking for a heart fit with xxxx is in my opinion a big mistake.
Even if your 1♦-2♦ bid denies a 4 card major the 4 card heart suit can be well considered a 3 card suit but maybe some players will disagree with this evaluation.
I will reckon that at MPs your style can be enough to reach the "stupid-panel 3N" game and get a non-heart lead and maybe a good score, at IMPs both experience and general theory will show you how wrong the 1♥ bid is.

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

And mike i thought this worth a game vs a minimum opening, its just a matter of hand eveluation.

If that's the case, you should have supported ♦ to begin with, either with inverted minors or some other way. You are already at 3 NT without r pd knowing you have a big ♦ fit. And if you want to be in game 5♦ much more likey then 3 NT.
And some people might consider 3♠ a psyche, especially if not alerted.

Mike

[Chamaco]

luis, on Jul 5 2004, 01:52 PM, said:

I will reckon that at MPs your style can be enough to reach the "stupid-panel 3N" game and get a non-heart lead and maybe a good score, at IMPs both experience and general theory will show you how wrong the 1♥ bid is.

Luis,
as usual with your posts, I find this comment very interesting.

Would you suggest the same approach if the 1♦ opening were a Precision "nebulous" diamond (13-15 bal + 4441s + "real diamond" hands) ?

[Flame]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 5 2004, 08:53 AM, said:

Quote

And mike i thought this worth a game vs a minimum opening, its just a matter of hand eveluation.

If that's the case, you should have supported ♦ to begin with, either with inverted minors or some other way. You are already at 3 NT without r pd knowing you have a big ♦ fit. And if you want to be in game 5♦ much more likey then 3 NT.
And some people might consider 3♠ a psyche, especially if not alerted.

Mike

And what about the heart suit ?

[luis]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 5 2004, 01:53 PM, said:

Quote

And mike i thought this worth a game vs a minimum opening, its just a matter of hand eveluation.

If that's the case, you should have supported ♦ to begin with, either with inverted minors or some other way. You are already at 3 NT without r pd knowing you have a big ♦ fit. And if you want to be in game 5♦ much more likey then 3 NT.
And some people might consider 3♠ a psyche, especially if not alerted.

Mike

Now look at what we've just done with this hand: We have AKJxx of diamonds and so far we showed Hearts and Spades where we have xxxx, and Kxx. Now we suspect your pd 3NT bid can be wrong due to our own bidding and want to remove.
So far we have:
Denied a diamond raise twice with AKJxx in the suit.
Announced a "heart suit" with xxxx
Showed values in spades with Kxx
Made pd bid 3NT where they may or may not run a zillion heart tricks or even clubs.

If our plan was to reach a doubtful 3NT or a terrible 4h game the operation was succesful, I just think the patient can still die.

The missing option in the poll should be "apologize and try to bid what we have next time"

[whereagles]

I don't think bypassing the hearts can be considered "right" or "wrong". I'd call that a matter of style and personal preference.