[paulhar]

In a brief perusal of this board, I found references to:
Squeeze
Smith Echo
Obvious Shift principle
Theoretical advantages to RKCB 1430 over 0314
and my personal favorite, beginner's guide to the scrambling 2NT (!)

If you are looking at these things and saying 'HUH???', then you are like the rest of the beginners and many of my wife's students that have been playing bridge for years and perhaps this 'Beginner & Intermediate discussion' SHOULD be for you. But quite likely, what has happened, is that you've read some of these posts, decided that the game wasn't for you after all, and taken up some other pasttime. Which is too bad, since I see 140 students each Monday morning in the winter all having a whale of a time, many getting together and playing with their newfound friends from class, and none of them will ever hear about a Smith Echo or any of that other aforementioned confounded stuff.

What does a beginner know?

About week 10 of a beginner's class, about half the beginners can take five tricks with AJ10xx opposite KQx (I'm totally serious), but a very low percentage will be able to take three tricks with AQJ opposite xxx (King onside), despite having been taught it and having seen a few lesson hands with a similar situation. In the more experienced class containing people that have played for years, about a third to a half will make four tricks with AKQ10 opposite xxxx with the jack fourth onside (marked finesse.) On a 'complicated' auction like 1D-1S-2C-2NT-3NT, it is likely that no more than 2 or 3 of our 35 tables will have the right auction. If you're not sure what all these bids mean, then I think this board should be for you - IMHO, things much more complicated than that shouldn't be on a board with a 'beginner' label on it. Maybe we need something between 'beginner/int' and the expert board.

Maybe all you people who are talking about 1430 and obvious shifts can tell me that I'm all wet - that the beginners are just dumb in my area but the beginners on BBO are the world's smartest and can understand all this stuff! (I'm not going to believe you - having to talked to other teachers all around the US, but you can tell me anyway.)

In any event, I'm proposing a short quiz in this post. I expect that most beginners should get at most one right and if you've been playing a year or so and aren't Mensa material, you might get 3 or 4 right. If someone thinks I'm way off base about the levels, let me know.

By the way, if you aren't an experienced player, and don't get many of these right, don't feel bad, you did as well as I expected. I'm not trying to bruise any egos. What I am trying to do is make the content of this discussion board more for you. Now, I can expect that I'm going to hear from all the hotshots that think this is too easy. And for a lot of you, it is. But, if you are a real beginner, and don't want to tell the world how poorly you did, let me know at paulhar@juno.com. Nobody but me will ever know.

Assume you are playing Standard American (SAYC??)

1. You hold: ♠ 3 2 ♥ K J 10 9 6 5 ♦ Q 5 4 ♣ 7 3
Your partner opens one spade. What is your plan? (Plan after a club rebid by partner, and after a spade rebid by partner.)

2. You hold: ♠ K 6 5 4 3 ♥ 7 5 ♦ Q 4 ♣ Q 9 5 3
Your partner opens one heart. You bid one spade (I hope.) Your parnter bids 2 diamonds. Your call?

3. You hold: ♠ K 6 5 4 3 ♥ 7 5 ♦ Q 4 ♣ A Q 9 5
Your partner opens one heart. You bid one spade (I hope.) Your parnter bids 2 diamonds. Your call?

4. You hold: ♠ 6 5 ♥ 7 5 ♦ A K Q J 6 4 ♣ 9 5 3
Your partner opens one notrump. Your call?

5. You hold: ♠ K J 10 4 ♥ 7 5 ♦ A Q 4 ♣ K 9 5 3
Your right hand opponent opens one spade. Your call?

6. You hold: ♠ Q J 7 4 ♥ A 7 5 ♦ 6 4 ♣ 10 9 5 3
Your left hand opponent opens one heart. Your partner doubles. Your right hand opponent bids two hearts. Your call?

7.
Dummy:
S - A 5 4
H - 6 4 3 2
D - J 6 5
C - J 4 2

Declarer:
S - K Q 10 7 3
H - A K
D - 7 3 2
C - A K Q


You are in four spades with no opposition bidding. The opponents take the first three diamonds and play a heart. Plan the play.


8.
Dummy:
S - A 5 4
H - 6 4 3 2
D - J 6 5
C - J 4 2

Declarer:
S - K Q J 10 9 3
H - 9
D - A K
C - A 7 6 5

You are in four spades with no opposition bidding. The opponents lead the king of hearts, winning, and then the queen of hearts. Play the play.


9. Against the opponents' 1H P 3H P 4H, your partner leads the ace of diamonds (showing the king.) What do you play at trick 1:

Dummy: (the 3H bidder)
S - 9 5
H - K 7 4 2
D - Q 10 6 3
C - K Q J

You have (third hand)
S - K Q 8 3
H - Q J 10
D - 9 2
C - 9 7 5 2


Answers:

1. You don't have enough strength to bid 2 hearts. Bid 1NT, showing 6-10 points (some will say 6-9) and nothing that can be bid at the one level, and denying support for partner. Having limited your hand to 10 points, if your partner bids again, say 2C, you can happily bid your hearts. Your partner should know from your first bid that you are weak and should pass. You usually should have six hearts for this bid. If partner had bid two spades over 1NT instead, you have found an eight-card fit (pard should have six) and you have no game, so you should pass. (I think you should pass with a singleton spade as well, no sense in burying your side deeper.)

2. Let's eliminate the bad stuff. First, 3C is forcing and will take you too high. 2NT is invitational, showing 11-12 - partner would bid 3NT with just a little more than a minimum opener. You have a minimum hand. Bidding two spades shows a weak hand, which you have, but your partner will almost always pass, even with a singleton or void. You have no desire to play 2S opposite a singleton, do you? OK, what about pass? How many hearts has partner shown? 5. How many diamonds? 4. Which is the better spot? Hearts, with seven trump. Won't partner be misled if I bid two hearts? No, you didn't bid 2H the first time; you shouldn't have three. Also, you are showing a weak hand (any previously bid suit at the two level shows a minimum.) So, settle for what appears to be the least of evils; bid 2H.

3. 3C virtually forces to game and you're not strong enough. You're too strong for an old suit at the two level and don't have enough spades to bid 3S which partner could pass with a singleton. Bid 2NT, invitational. If partner is good, you won't miss a 5-3 spade fit if you have a game; he'll bid 3S "on the way" to game if accepting your invitation. If you don't understand the last statement, don't worry, it's pretty advanced stuff.

4. If your RHO is your boss, you might bid 3D to avoid having him lead an embarrassing diamond. If you want to win, forget the diamonds and bid 3NT, the game you know you belong in. If you want to tell partner about your nice diamonds, wait until you lay your dummy down and mention that you have nice diamonds.

5. You have an opening hand. So what? You have no five card suit to overcall. (Even 2C would show 5 - some experts think it shows 6 most of the time.) You don't have enough to bid 1NT. If you double for takeout, and partner bids hearts (what you expect), you're in a pickle - if you now bid 2NT, you're showing a hand that was too good to overcall 1NT - but your partner might know better when lefty doubles you for 800.

6. Your side has about half the points. Your partner has support for all suits but hearts. Why let their side play it when your side has just as much as theirs? Bid 2S.

7. You can't afford to lose a trump. If spades are 3-2, no problem. If you play the ace, then king, and RHO has four to the jack, you can't get back to dummy to finesse. Play the king (or queen) first, then low to the ace. Then if lefty shows out, you can finesse the 10 to make all your trumps. Don't feel bad if you didn't get this one. Most of our experienced students would not make this hand with jack-fourth on the right.

8. What are your losers? One heart and three clubs. Too many! How will we get rid of a loser? Your clubs are shorter in dummy than in your hand. Play the ace and another club. When you get in, lose another club. When you get in again, trump a club with the ace of spades for your tenth trick. Don't even draw one round of trumps; an opponent with three trumps can lead trumps when he gets in with clubs and you won't have any trumps to trump that last club with, and will have to depend on a 3-3 club break.

9. This is the one our beginners would get right. Not for the right reason! You probably know that you signal high-low with a doubleton so you can get a ruff. Do you want a ruff? You have a natural trump trick, so the ruff does you no good, and sets up the ♦Q in dummy which the declarer will gratefully discard on after pulling your other two trump. Discourage diamonds (with the deuce, playing normal signals) and partner will probably shift to a spade (not much sense in playing clubs from his point of view.) When you get your trump trick, you happily take your spade and lead to your partner's diamond King.

The full hand:

---

If you encourage and get your ruff, declarer loses three trick, since his spade loser goes away on dummy's queen of diamonds. If you discourage, yes even with your doubleton, you score a spade, a trump, and two diamonds.


If you've been playing less than a year, I suspect you got more than half of these wrong. OK, everyone, do I have the levels right or not? If so, why are we talking about the scrambling 2NT here?

[inquiry]

You are confused for two reasons.

First, this forum, "Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion" is for Beginners and [B]Intermediates". Please bear that in mind. As such a forum, some material will be for intermediates.

Second, let me take your "beginner's guide to scrambling 2NT" as an example. A late beginner/early intermediate player asked specifically for an explaination of scrambling 2NT. What should people do, ignore the request? Tell them to go away until they bid and play better? While the rules of this site tries to direct the corrrect content level for the correct discussion group, it doesn't seem right to refuse to answer a question becasue it was posted in the beginner/intermediate forum.

Same for the "theoretical advantages to RKCB 1430 over 0314" (which wasn't my question or answer). But if an intermeidate ask such question, what should people with opinions do, ignore it?

Smith Echo and Obvious Shift was added to a long, multiple post thread in response to a beginners question about giving signals. If you actually read the thread, you will see that a recommnend signal choices for "beginners" was given that was standard signals in US and udca in europe or if you play on line most of the time.

Ben

[Flame]

First i agree those subject arent importert, but when someone askes we shouldnt ignore. Now there is a problem defining a begginers, i sometimes teach begginers and i was a begginer ofcourse, those begginers and the way i was a begginer fit the profile of begginer you that doesnt know how to play AQJ vs xxx.
But on the other hand i know begginers who play a year and really know bridge, actually my current partner is playing bridge for less then 2 years, and he isnt paying me. Is he a genoius ? no he is far from it, he just decided to learn brdige seriously, read 30-40 right book, asked the right questions and there he is playing with me, yes his inexpirences makes him mistake more then i, but he know bridge, sqeezes scrambling or any of those conventions you mentioned. So what made him get where i got only after maybe 10 years of bridge ? my answer is the enviromnent, i learned bridge with a group like you mentioned, with knew what we knew, and didnt do much to know more, on the other hand , he was in a competitive enviroment with other young people that wanted to get better at this game, and now they are all pretty good players.
I dont think knowing there is whole world of bridge outside the door of your classroom, is bad, i think its what got them to be good players, and probelby enjoy the game better.
I believe if someone wants to, i can teach him to be a good player in about a year after he learns how to shuffel the cards.

[Flame]

About conventions like those you mentioned, i can tell you there are many bad teachers who like to teach many conventions, they do this because they just dont know enough bridge to teach it, so they prefer to teach conventions, learning something like scrambling NT , or smith is much easier then learning how to play AQJ vs xxx (yes that simple) but it will not help your bridge nearly as much, and imo will hurt your bridge because it will solve bridge dilemas that you should face and learn from.

[bearmum]

inquiry, on Jul 3 2004, 03:21 PM, said:

You are confused for two reasons.

First, this forum, "Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion" is for Beginners and [B]Intermediates". Please bear that in mind. As such a forum, some material will be for intermediates.

Second, let me take your "beginner's guide to scrambling 2NT" as an example. A late beginner/early intermediate player asked specifically for an explaination of scrambling 2NT. What should people do, ignore the request? Tell them to go away until they bid and play better?  While the rules of this site tries to direct the corrrect content level for the correct discussion group, it doesn't seem right to refuse to answer a question becasue it was posted in the beginner/intermediate forum.

Same for the "theoretical advantages to RKCB 1430 over 0314" (which wasn't my question or answer).  But if an intermeidate ask such question, what should people with opinions do, ignore it?

Smith Echo and Obvious Shift was added to a long, multiple post thread in response to a beginners question about giving signals. If you actually read the thread, you will see that a recommnend signal choices for "beginners" was given that was standard signals in US and udca in europe or if you play on line most of the time.

Ben

I can understand that even "intermediates" (like me) can be confused with SOME of the esoteric discussions which the ADVANCED players post in the "beginners and intermediates" forum

MAYBE a SPECIFIC request from a BIL (beginner/intermediate) should be answered either by a PRIVATE message - or a referral to a NEW string titled (for example) "beginners guide to scrambling NT" or whatever SPECIFIC question was answered

I REALLY have no problem reading the quite fascinating forums between "expert" and "world class" players about conventions I have NEVER heard of (in fact I find them instructive and ALSO amusing) BUT I feel thet that type of discussion is inappropiate in a BIL forum

[paulhar]

A couple of things.

TO THE BEGINNERS & SOCIAL PLAYERS (and probably some "intermediates"):

If you're reading some of the other threads on the B&I board and don't understand them, don't worry about it. Just play your normal game and nobody should care. If somebody does care that you're not familiar with some fancy convention, you don't want to partner that person anyway.

TO THE ADVANCED OR BETTER PLAYERS:

My intention is not to pick on anybody. Most of the advanced players seem to give fairly accurate answers and some are remarkably easy to understand (I say remarkably since I've seen some teachers that were remarkably difficult to understand!) Also, it appears that most do a lot of work for the B/I players. (Ben - I can't believe your avatar is 'bored outta my mind - it seems you have a full time job informing others!) Keep up the good work! My only question was about what material was appropriate for a board that beginners and social players might be reading...

THE PROBLEM AS I SEE IT:

What is an intermediate player? The intermediate player on this board is supposedly an average player that plays on BBO. In my experience, the average player on this board is better than 98% of the social players I've encountered, and also better than 95% of the students at our club who have played bridge before but want to improve. The average player on BBO will probably not have a problem with any of the material I've seen on the B&I board. The average social player or club student will be at best confused and otherwise might understand the material instead of trying to master the basics they so sorely need.

As far as 'beginner', in theory, these might be the same in the real world and on BBO. (Yes, a point might be made that a beginner that takes the time to read thses threads is going to on average more studious than your average beginner - but they're still beginners.) If only one true beginner looks at the mountain of information which means very little to them (on the beginner's board no less) and decides that the game isn't for them, is this not a tragedy? Maybe the solution is as simple as putting a warning in the original introduction to the board - something that will let the beginner know that some of the information may not be pertinent to them (or even understandable to them) but they can ask their questions here and will get them clearly answered and not worry about the information that is beyond them.

The other question I have, though, is should questions posed by people that are better than 98% of social players (which means better than 97% of all players since the tournament world is only a small fraction of the real bridge playing world) be in the same forum as questions posted by people that are really just learning the game?

By the way, for those of you who only play on BBO and in tournaments, let me describe the social games I've played in (both in New York State and in Florida):

NOTE TO BEGINNERS: DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING! IT WILL BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR BRIDGE!!! (none of these are true on BBO)

1. Nobody signals. If your partner does signal, it's "if I discard something, that's the suit I want."

2. 1NT is a great way to start a conversation. Then we both start bidding suits until somebody decides it's time to pass. Frequently that happens when one of the partners names a suit the other one likes.

3. If they ever make a takeout double, it's done on any opening hand. Obviously they don't have an opening hand for their overcall (or 5 cards for that matter), if they had one, they would have doubled.

4. All doubles other than over an opening bid are for penalty. (Such as 1D P P 1H double). Of course, doubling a 1NT opening bid is for takeout. (reminder to beginners - this is not true)

5. Always lead the top card of your partner's suit! Also, if you're lucky enough to draw a partner that isn't haphazardly leading unguarded honors, they'll lead fourth best from any holding, including (yes, I really saw this against a SUIT contract, no less) AKQ8.

I could go on and on - but these are the players that could be getting computers and coming onto BBO to play. Since they've played for twenty years and are just as good as anybody else in their group, they're Intermediate. (Some might call themselves Advanced if they're one of the few that have heard of fourth best!) Imagine their shock when they go to to the B&I forum and see this stuff (Oh my, Muriel - you just won't believe the nonsense that some young whipper-snapper is saying about signalling!)

[EarlPurple]

Actually (3) above (double with an opening hand, overcall with weaker hands) is similar to what the Italians used very well in their heyday.

[Gerben47]

But in the 60s the next hand would not make a weak jump raise.

Gerben

[paulhar]

Does anybody read this thread besides advanced players?

[inquiry]

paulhar, on Jul 4 2004, 11:35 AM, said:

Does anybody read this thread besides advanced players?

Well, experts and world class read these too... :-)

Seriously, beginners and novices read these post (if you click on the Board statistics field, "show by last click") you can see what various people are doing on lthe board (what thread tehy are reading), or if you look at the last post in any thread, you can see who else is reading it. Doing this shows a lot of known beginners come and read post here, but never, or almost never post themselves. I fear it is out of concern their views will be made fun of, and I try to prevent that, especially within this specific forum. Don't let the lack of responses get you down too much, eventually you will log onto bBO to play and the beginners will begin to thank you for your helpful post... yet another proof they read these.

Ben

[rona_]

paulhar, on Jul 4 2004, 06:35 PM, said:

Does anybody read this thread besides advanced players?

Yes Paulhar. I read this thread every day and I am not an advanced player by any stretch of the imagination Many thanks to everyone that posts here.

[paulhar]

inquiry, on Jul 4 2004, 11:21 AM, said:

(text deleted) a lot of known beginners come and read post here, but never, or almost never post themselves. I fear it is out of concern their views will be made fun of, and I try to prevent that, especially within this specific forum. (text deleted)

That is really too bad. Beginners: This is your board! You shouldn't be afraid to say your piece, for fear of being poked fun at. Anybody that pokes fun at you for saying something that a beginner might say deserves a stern warning (or worse ).

If you post something that makes it obvious that there is a gap in your bridge knowledge, I suspect that it will be dealt with clearly and with no putdowns. I presume if anybody ever did poke fun at you, it would be because they assumed you were an expert which appear to be fair game. I've got my share of ribbing here but I know for a fact that none of those fun-poking posts would have happened if I were a beginner. In my experience, posters are pretty good about that.

Nobody's going to keep the 'experts' off this B&I forum. But what kind of decent player comes here? Do you think they come to show off? Do you think they come here to put you down? Indeed not, from what I've seen, to a man, the more advanced players that frequent the B&I forum are people who love the game and want to give back to the game and want to help you out. They are people who know what it's like to be a beginner - and they're not going to try to make you feel bad.

I know where you're coming from. My wife and I used to play in a social game occasionally and although we were nice enough and neither of us ever critisized anybody and didn't give unwanted advice. I noticed that there was lots of jovial talking about the bridge at other tables but people tended to clam up when one of us was at the table. Some of them seemed nervous that there was someone there that would actually notice that they didn't play well. So we figured that the game would be more fun for the other participants if we weren't there. The game would have been more fun for all if nobody knew us and the host had not introduced us as 'that couple that gives bridge lessons.'

So, are you afraid that if you say something, that people will know that you're a beginner? Clearly, that's not a problem. If anybody comes to a board labeled Beginner & Intermediate, they should expect to be talking to beginners. And they should expect the beginners to talk back. After all, if you just want to sit back and watch the advanced players discuss B&I topics, you might do better to go to 'Explore Bridge' where there is some instructional material for all levels. (Start with Learn to Play Bridge. If you're a beginner, most of the articles are going to be beyond your level and will confuse you. If you're intermediate, those are written by the likes of Fred Gitelman and Larry Cohen - far better than most of the posters here.) The Bridge Base Standard (Basic) summary might be good to look at too - to make sure you're on the same page as the rest of us. The Bridge Master link is good too.

However good some of this material is, it does not let you interact with other real people. It probably won't answer your specific questions. This board will, but only if you use it. This board might be a good place to find others like yourselves to play BBO with if that's what you'd like. (The View: Adjust display settings can limit your view of the available tables to those you would feel better at too.) And, I assume it's here for you to talk to other beginners too. That's fine, the advanced players will pretend we're not here for those posts.

But most importantly, at the risk of repeating myself, this is your forum - use it!

[Trpltrbl]

There are no stupid questions.
Just ignorant people.

Mike

[hallway]

I am the Mother of all BBO BEGINNERS

I created the Beginner Intermediate Lounge for them to play in.

They can attend a teaching session at LEAST once a day - sometimes as many as three 2 hour sessions and often two. The teaching team includes World Class/Star players and Experts from around the world - We Need More !!!

Each week there are tournaments for them to play in - those that want to can compete for IBD points. This week we are trying out holding 3 in one day to go global ! - members hate to miss out on things .

There are a Team of Host/esses from all corners of the world to help them over come any language difficulties and to help them to overcome the stress of learning to use the site as well as play bridge !

There are a Team of Lounge Assistants ably headed by Flytrap that assist the teachers to keep law and order during the lessons

Each week they receive a Newsletter with a regular lesson by Byroner and articles GEARED DOWN to their level by a number of contributers and all manner of help and advice - BBO product reviews - extracts from JRG's BBO HELP files and much more.

There is a team of 22 Advisors and 5th Chair mentors that use the Lounge to help the members to learn - most permit kibs at their tables so any who are around may benefit also. WE NEED MORE !!!!!!!!!!

Members can have their favourite expert made an Honorary member so that they can just play together and learn - we have 15 Honorary Member Support persons.

In the Lounge the levels are defined as being
** BEGINNER - newcomer to bridge - one who is learning the basic principles
** NOVICE - one who has played Bridge in the past but now needs to up skill for Internet bridge (e.g. playing duplicate/new conventions ) to be once again competitive
** INTERMEDIATE -one who has a good understanding of the basic principles and is learning the modern conventions and those who are developing the skills to become an Advanced Player

For the true Beginner we have their very own website . Access to this is by invitation only not even the most friendly of Intermediates are allowed. Each week there is a quiz for them to answer, there is a questions section where every question is given a serious response. there is a Hints section wee gems that beginners need to help them remember.

Never the less it is still a scary thing for beginners. and few join up and even fewer participate - but those that have joined will benefit from reading what is written. That applies to this thread too - Ben has worked hard ever since the first day the forum was established to keep it within bounds (when it has gone beyond he knows I will have something to say )

Paulhar - can I pinch those quiz questions for them ? Now what I would truly, truly, really, really like is for someone to put up their hand and say they will come and TEACH a BEGINNER Beginner's class - that is the challenge - because as has been spoken of in these threads many who class themselves as beginners really know quite a bit and teachers are but human and they lift the lesson to those that speak up - and the Beginner beginner does not do so and is LOST . I know I am one I am now able to restrict entry to a pre play of the hands to the beginners and the LA's are well versed at keeping law and order now - I think we could pull it off. It would be worth a try !!

Maureen (hallway) Founder /Manager
Beginner Intermediate Lounge aka B/I lounge or affectionately the BIL
members of which are fondly referred to as BILlies currently over 1400 actively involved.

[paulhar]

hallway, on Jul 7 2004, 01:16 AM, said:

Paulhar - can I pinch those quiz questions for them ?

Absolutely - although I think most of them are beyond true beginners. I would never dream of using those two play problems or that defensive problem in a beginner's class (you have to teach people to draw trump, to play the high card from the short side first, and to signal - before you can teach them the exceptions)

quite possibly they might be OK for some of the 'beginners' on BBO but for true beginners learning the game, they might be a li'l tough IMHO.

We used to have the following hand in our Beginner Lesson 12 on the strong 2C opening: (something resembling:

Q64 Lead: 10 of spades
AQJ
97432
Q5

AKJ7
K5
AKJ
KJ108

It was supposed to go 2C-2D(waiting)-2NT-6NT.

(Solution below in case any real beginners are reading this.)

We used it in two different 11 table beginner classes and nobody ever made it. We decided that it was too cruel to punish the students who bid the slam so we modified the hand so that only promotion was required. Now about two-thirds of the students make the slam. (12 top tricks, anyone?)

Solution: You have nine winners (4S,3H,2D) and need 3 more. You can get all three from clubs. Do your work early, and drive out the ace of clubs. Once that is done, you can take your winners, taking care to play the high card from the short side first in spades (SQ) and hearts (HK), and discarding the "useless" jack of diamonds on the extra heart winner. When you counted the twelve tricks that you intended to take, the jack of diamonds wasn't among them, but your fourth club and fourth spade were, so they cannot be discarded on the long heart.

Some of those rebids that I had in those examples are hard for people that have been playing socially for years. For a true beginner, I would tend to focus more on the basics of 'do we have a game' and 'do we have a fit' and 'show your strength when you bid an old suit', etc.

Surprisingly, this hand caused most of our 'Rusty Bridge' for social players class to go awry, although I think this is a fine hand for beginners:

S - 10 9 8 6 5 4
H - 7 3
D - K 3
C - K J 5

Partner opens 1D, you bid 1S, and partner rebids 1NT.
The nice thing about this problem is that you don't have to know that much to get it right, you just have to realize that partner is showing a balanced hand too weak to open 1NT. Everybody got the right answer if prodded with the questions 'do you have a game?" (no) and "do you have a fit?" (yes). The people entering the class from our beginner's class had little problem bidding 2S but most of the old time social players thought it was a 'one-bid' hand and passed 1NT. (Ironically, they also would have passed 2H for the same reason.)

I'm curious about the level of the beginners that you allow into the 'beginner's website' - if they're like the beginners in our class or if they're a cut above that.

By the way, I haven't seen mention of that website whcih implies that I wouldn't have if I were a beginner either. How does the website find the beginners (or vice versa?)

[EricK]

I find it hard to believe that no-one got the 6NT hand right! Especially as it was lesson 12.

I would have thought that the general structure of a beginner's bridge course would look similar to (this isn't divided into lessons, it is simply the sort of order to do things):

Basic rules (eg following suit, winner leads to next trick, trumps and so on)
Play of NT hands where tricks are on top, no entry problem
Play of NT hands where tricks are on top, mild entry problem
Play of NT hands where high cards need to be knocked out
Play of NT hands where finesse is needed
Then on to simple suit contracts (I will stop giving a breakdown at this point)
basic defense
basic bidding
more advanced plays (but still "elementary stuff" eg hold ups)
more advanced defense
more advanced bidding
and so on

My point is that they should be able to handle this sort of hand really early on in the course.

Eric

[Cave_Draco]

Most of the confusion seems to stem from bidding?

My advice? Learn BBO Basic!

If your vocabulary includes 100,000 words, you still communicate with 1,000 words!

Bidding IS easier than signalling... BUT, signalling only has meaning if you follow Dragon Rule #1...

Count the cards.

btw, Dragon Rule #2 is...

COUNT the cards.

Dragon quote?
"Give me a P who can defend!"

Bidding systems tend to exclude partners... Ooooh! I don't play...
Give me a P who can defend!

[luis]

I just want to insert a little comment in this thread:
While both the BIL and this forum are for beginners we should take in consideration that today's beginners and intermediates can be tomorrows world class players. Everybody started some day ago.

Social bridge teachers and some club teachers that I know try their students as if they were incapable of growing past the intermediate level, maybe that's because they need them to be weak to keep paying for lessons :-). In the BIL we have an environment free of nasty habits like the one I mentioned. Nothing is "too advanced", nothing is "too complex" maybe "too soon" but never too complex because in a near future we hope our students to be succesful experts and thus sooner or later they will have to learn what today can be too complex for them. If a hand can be won with an intra-finesse do not refrain from mentioning because "they won't get it", maybe not now but what about in some months? The sole mention to a topic is enough to awake curiosity and make them want to learn new things. Maybe this is not the right way to teach bridge but I strongly believe that no matter what level your students are you should explain everything you can about each hand and let them assimilate what they can now and write down what they don't understand for later.

My tip for experts and advanced players posting here is keep posting and for the students keep reading and if you don't understand something write it down and try to understand it in a few months, if you succed then you will know you are better and nothing is more pleasant than that.

Luis.

[hallway]

paulhar - from the nature of the application to join the BIL I and I alone decide whether I will send the applicant an invitation to participate in the Beginner Section. Many are accepted as BIL members - few receive the invitation to join the Beginner Section. I am disappointed :-( - I thought you might have taken up the challenge and offered to become a Teacher for the Beginner Beginners. Thank you though, I will use your quiz questions.

luis - a pleasure to have you back at the teaching table today :-) As you say no harm in letting them hear of 'other stuff' - pique the curiosity ! I or a BIL LA are always there ready to remind them that they do not need to 'worry your heads over that just yet - time enough when you are reaching Graduation Day "

btw - (nothing to do with this thread !) but during the BIL's first birthday celebrations, just a few weeks away, we will be having a Graduation Ceremony for those members who are now ready to go head to head with the Adv/Exp who have so generously helped them . Beware the BILlies are coming !!

[hallway]

Sorry Paul did not see your other post . I now see you are undertaking holding lessons for beginners in the Main Bridge Club.

Good Luck