[DrTodd13]

One problem with SAYC and 2/1 is the huge range of the intermediate hands...11 to 21 points. Precisionish systems overcome this huge problem but create a smaller problem in that opener has a huge range on the high end, 16-30+. In some competitive scenarios (the inevitable "I'm playing against precision" preempt) it can be tough for responder to know what to bid then or later when opener has such a large range. So, I've been tinkering with the idea of a 4 range system rather than the 3 ranges that both SAYC, 2/1 and precision use. So, in the precision case you'd limit the 1♣ opener to 20 or 21 points. Then you'd have a super-strong opening for 22+. You wouldn't want to waste a low-level bid to show such an infrequent hand so I was thinking of rolling these hands into 2♠. You can roll the weak 2 spade hand into 2♥ so that 2♥ is a preempt in either major. If you don't need 2♦ systemically to show a hand short in diamonds then then the super-strong hand could use this bid.

Any thoughts?

Todd

[luke warm]

what are your thoughts on the 1c and 1d opening bids being either flat hands that fall within certain ranges else unbalanced with the suits bid? mikestar recommeded something like this, based upon a 10-12 NV nt range (V nt is different):

1c=16-18 or 21, 22 if balanced (whether 5M332 held are not) OR unbalanced 11+ with clubs
1d=13-15 or 19, 20 if balanced OR unbalanced 11+ with diamonds

if vulnerable, it depends on 1nt range.. i personally think 12-14 and just forget the 10, 11 balanced hands.. then:

1c=17, 18 or 21, 22 if balanced OR unbalanced 11+ with clubs
1d=15, 16 or 19, 20 if balanced OR unbalanced 11+ with diamonds

his thought was that neither bid should be forcing, but i think at least one of them (the 1c bid) should be

this looks playable.. maybe not in this form, but something like it

[Free]

As far as I know, natural systems use 4 range:
12-14
15-17
18-19(20)
(20)21+
However this is shown in the first rebid. So you want to make a system which shows 4 ranges immediatly with the opening bid?

Like
1♣ = 16-20(21)
1X = 11-15
1NT = some balanced range (13-15 or 10-12)
2♣ = 11-15
2♦ = something
2♥ = weak in either Major
2♠ = (21)22+

Still seems like a 3 range system: 11-15, 16-20, 22+

[luke warm]

no, the bidding would be something like:

1c : 1x : 1n = balanced hand, 16-18 (assuming nv, 10-12 1nt)
1c : 1x : 2n=balanced hand, 21, 22

1d: 1x : 1n=balanced hand, 13-15
1d : 1x : 2n=balanced hand, 19, 20

so the 1nt bid doesn't show a huge range and the 2nt jump even less.. when vulnerable (12-14 nt) the bid ranges are 2 points all the way:

1c : 1x : 1n=17, 18
1c : 1x : 2n=21, 22

1d : 1x : 1n=15, 16
1d : 1x : 2n=19, 20

so the range for 1c depends on the nt range used and whether or not the rebid is 1nt or 2nt... same for the 1d bid

[DrTodd13]

Free: You forgot Pass=0-10. That is the 4th range.

Luke's suggestion reminded me of a possibility. Maybe we multiplex the super strong hands into 1D (which would have to be forcing) and then make an impossible rebid to show the super strong hand. This would probably prevent much preemption since 11-15 would be so prevalent. If they did preempt and opener takes a super strong action then responder is better placed to know what opener has. I'll have to think about this some more.

Todd

[Flame]

Some Polish club are 4 range systems
0-11 pass
12-18 1c,1d,1h,1s
19-22 1c
2c- 23+
Also Magic Diamond is a 4-range system.( it could be a 5-range system if you add a normal 2c)
I am not sure precision will get any better with a 4th range, it wont make my life that much easier after they interfier, and bidding with the strong version will be very bad if it starts at 2sp. lets say i play normal precision and partner always assume iv got 16-21, so when i really have this range , we didnt get anything by adding anew range, and when i have the 22+ i would prefer to open 1c than 2sp, and servive when they interfere. (having partner assume i got 16-21)

[Flame]

I'v already mentioned magic diamond, i think if we are thinking about 4 range, they those ranges must begin with 8 hcp (would prefer 7 but its illegal)

[Atul]

DrTodd13, on Jun 14 2004, 06:18 PM, said:

One problem with SAYC and 2/1 is the huge range of the intermediate hands...11 to 21 points. Precisionish systems overcome this huge problem but create a smaller problem in that opener has a huge range on the high end, 16-30+. In some competitive scenarios (the inevitable "I'm playing against precision" preempt) it can be tough for responder to know what to bid then or later when opener has such a large range. So, I've been tinkering with the idea of a 4 range system rather than the 3 ranges that both SAYC, 2/1 and precision use. So, in the precision case you'd limit the 1♣ opener to 20 or 21 points. Then you'd have a super-strong opening for 22+. You wouldn't want to waste a low-level bid to show such an infrequent hand so I was thinking of rolling these hands into 2♠. You can roll the weak 2 spade hand into 2♥ so that 2♥ is a preempt in either major. If you don't need 2♦ systemically to show a hand short in diamonds then then the super-strong hand could use this bid.

Any thoughts?

Todd

Playing a FP system, one possibility is to introduce a "forcing fert" in addition to the FP. Basically, the idea here would be to cut out the unbounded 14+ opening FP range to say 14 - 17 or something along those lines.

Thus the opening structure might resemble something like:

Pass: 13/14 - 17; any shape
1C (Fert): 0 - 8 mostly balaced OR 18+ any shape
1D, 1H, 1S: Transfer oriented opening bids; 9 - 13-
1N: 9 - 13 balanced
etc...

Presumably all responses except 1N to 1C opening would show 3+ and be NF -- opener now bids 1N w/ the 18+ hand. or bids a suit to suggest another place to play. Perhaps, jump bids can be used to show suit oriented 18+ hands...

Atul

[Trpltrbl]

Start using Kokish after 2♣ opening and you have 8 opening ranges.
That should cover it all I think.

Mike

[Antoine Fourrière]

Why not lump together the minimum three-suiters short in diamonds and the game forces into the 2♦ opening? (I suggested that approach in a previous thread, excepted that the 1♣ opening was Polish-like, 12-15 balanced or 18+ balanced or 15+ with clubs and could still cater to balanced game forces.) Anyway, both hand types occur seldom, and opener need not speak freely with the former.