[vuroth]

Scoring: MP

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I asked in another thread how to bid the reasonable 6♣ contract. Justin suggested:

Quote

1D-1N
3C-3H
3N-4C
4D-4H
6C

At our table, we started with

1♦ - 1NT
3♣

After this, things kind of went south. So I'll start my questions there:

1. If you had to choose, right now, between 3NT and 5♣, which would you chose? (As a B/I, I sometimes get excited and jump to a game I think I can make, ignoring slam possibilities.) I ask this mostly to understand the mindset going forwards - i.e. where I should be driving to.

2. It occurred to me in the post-mortem that bidding 3♥ here can "never cost". 3♥ seems right if you're trying to get to 3NT, but if you're trying to decide between 5♣ and 6♣ is it still always the right first step?

3. Are these right? Responses to 3♥:
- 3♠ - Denies a spade stopper. 2254 or (13)54.
- 3NT - Spade stopper. Likely 3154, or AK or AQ doubleton in ♠ (or can I get away with less in spades? maybe Ax, but not Kx or Qx since I'd be dummy....)
- 4♣ - my hand is not suitable for NT. Guessing at least 5/5 in the minors. (is this my bid with Ax x AKxxx AKxxx?)
- 4♦ - unsuitable for NT, at least 6/4 in the minors?
- 5♣, 5♦ - stronger than the 4 level?

4.
1♦ - 1NT
3♣ - 3♥
3♠ - 3NT

Assuming I'm not already totally lost, is 3NT offer to play with a partial stopper - i.e. Qx, Jxx?

5. After 3NT, 4♣ is a slam try, correct? Forcing to 5♣, shows a better than than an immediate 4♣ or 5♣ (over 3♣) would have?

6. Is this even possible?
1♦ - 1NT
3♣ - 3♥
3NT - 5♣

A slam offer with weak but long clubs? Or not really possible?

7. Last, but not least, in Justin's auction
4♦ - first or second round control
4♥ - first (or second?) round control (already showed a stopper, so maybe this is ace?)
6♣ - I admit, I have trouble picturing this bid. Are you basically counting on A♥, king or queen of ♣, 5+ clubs, and a short pointed suit in dummy?

...

Thanks in advance. This whole minor game vs nt game vs slam auction is something I'm not as strong on as I'd like to be, and I haven't been able to find the answers I'm looking for elsewhere.

[awm]

Really Justin should be the one to answer this, but I'll take a shot...

(1) I'd guess 3NT just because it's the nine-trick game, and because there is a small chance partner corrects with a very freaky minor suit hand. But it's quite easy to construct hands where either game is better than the other as well as hands where slam makes. This is why just bidding a game is a bad idea.

(2) The 3♥ bid helps isolate the potential problem in spades (a problem which could lead to clubs being better than notrump, or to not having slam due to two top losers). Since it's cheaper than the other obvious call of 4♣, no real reason not to bid it. Certainly if we had a spade stopper also and less interest in a club slam (i.e. ♠Kxx ♥ATx ♦Jxx ♣xxxx) we would bid 3NT and not 3♥.

(3) Agree that 3♠ denies a spade stopper, 3NT suggests playing there, 4♣/4♦ show extra shape. There is some possibility that 4♦ is a 6-3 or 7-3 hand since one-suiters with game values do often have to "fake" a jump shift. I disagree that jumping to 5♣ is "stronger" than 4♣ -- usually in a game-forcing auction jumping directly to game is a weaker action, or a highly descriptive one. I would think that a 5♣ bid is mostly "to play" with a weak spade holding (say ♠Qx ♥- ♦AKxxxx ♣AQJxx or ♠xx ♥K ♦AKQxx ♣AQJxx) whereas bidding 4♣ normally shows a spade control of sorts (but frequently a spade singleton rather than ace/king) and looking for slam.

(4) Yup, 3NT there shows partial stop.

(5) Opener's 3♣ bid was forcing to game. So 4♣ directly is also forcing. I don't think the distinction between 3♥...4♣ or direct 4♣ is one of strength -- it's more club length and location of values. The direct 4♣ tends to deny major suit cards, as well as denying any interest in playing 3NT.

(6) Dunno if it's possible either, but I guess it might be six clubs, heart cards, and nothing in the pointed suits.

(7) 4♥ should probably be first-round control, since north has already shown heart values (via 3♥) and opener fairly often has heart shortness on this sequence (3154 a common shape). South visualizes the ♥A along with five reasonable clubs to be looking for slam. Note that 6♣ is quite good opposite ♠xxx ♥Axx ♦xx ♣Kxxxx and even has play opposite ♠xxx ♥Ax ♦xxx ♣Kxxxx; there will be time to discard a spade from dummy on declarer's diamonds so the spade doubleton is not really essential to the hand.

[hanp]

I wouldn't bid 3H. Just because it is cheaper, it isn't necessarily better. What else would you bid with Jxx AK10 xxx xxxx? The original hand screams clubs and 4C is clearer than 3H. Partner will very likely cue 4D and then you can cue 4H.

Now that partner bid 3NT over our 3H it works out very nicely but there are other auctions where our intentions will be less clear, for example if partner bids 3S.

Cueing A10x just once is more than enough.

[kfay]

hanp, on Nov 19 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't bid 3H. Just because it is cheaper, it isn't necessarily better. What else would you bid with Jxx AK10 xxx xxxx? The original hand screams clubs and 4C is clearer than 3H. Partner will very likely cue 4D and then you can cue 4H.

Now that partner bid 3NT over our 3H it works out very nicely but there are other auctions where our intentions will be less clear, for example if partner bids 3S.

Cueing A10x just once is more than enough.

I was thinking about replying to this post a few hours ago and saying 'Justin bid 3♥? Really?' But I thought that would be uncalled for

Anyway I wouldn't bid 3♥ either. This reminds me of a post in this forum a few months back by Kathryn...

[vuroth]

kfay, on Nov 19 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

This reminds me of a post in this forum a few months back by Kathryn...

Well if I'm following in Kathryn's footsteps then I'm doing something right - she asked good questions.

Partner and I disagreed on where we went wrong trying to get to 6, but it made me realize that I didn't UNDERSTAND the other options along the way.

I realize this was a handful, but I appreciate people taking the time to read. My usual sounding board is unavailable.

Cheers!

[Jlall]

This is a really complicated hand, who knows if the auction I gave is best.

1D-1N
3C

are all automatic, 3C is a good bid not only because you might have slam, but you have no heart stopper. Remember that when it goes 1D p 1N you know with 5-4 in the minors you have a big fit, either 2 8 card minor suit fits or one 9+ card fit. That is great when you have a primed out hand like openers.

After that the question is should you just bid 4C or should you start with 3H. This auction is not that well known, but in general I like the concept of setting trumps immediately rather than making an advanced cuebid. The auction can get murky if you don't set trumps immediately and clarify your intentions immediately.

That being said, 3H DOES set trumps as clubs. Why? Becuase with a diamond fit you would bid 3D, and you must have either a club or a diamond fit. Still, 3H does not clarify your intentions immediately. You are not screaming "I'm slamming in clubs." You are more pinpointing that you have heart values and not spade values which could be a 3N issue. As mentioned here, 3H is not yet a slam try.

When partner bids 3N over 3H and you pull it, you have clarified your intentions nicely and are well placed. But sometimes partner doesn't bid 3N as han says. Can the murkiness cost?

Well, I don't really think it will. You always have available cuebidding 4H next which clarifies to me that you have the ACE rather than something else (the ace is very important, compared to your 3H bid which just showed a stopper and could have been QJx or KQx). And by cuebidding you are saying "I'm trying for slam." And remember, 3H has set clubs, so that won't be an issue.

What advantage does 3H have over raising directly to 4C? Well the main advantage imo is that you are sure to be able to show that you have a heart card and probably don't have a spade card (definitely confirmed when you don't cuebid spades next).

Sure 4C will work fine when partner bids 4D and you bid 4H, but I don't think partner will always bid 4D. In fact, I don't think 4D necessarily is just a cuebid, I think it brings diamonds back in as a potential trump fit, if you are say 6-4 or whatever. At the very least it should show very good diamonds or something, not just your usual first or second round control.

If partner doesn't bid 4D, I can see you getting into trouble. If he bids 4H you have a great hand but you can't cuebid 4S to show this (it would show a spade control). If partner bids 4S I guess you are endplayed into bidding keycard, but you'd much rather partner was in control since you don't know that much, and can show your whole hand via keycard.

Anyways, for these reasons I think 3H is better than 4C.

After 3H, I think 3N is auto by south, he is minimum and his partner showed a heart stopper. Partner may just have xxx KQx Jxx xxxx or whatever, so it would be crazy to do anything else.

After 3N, responder is well placed and bids 4C to emphasize his club support. The fifth club is great and he has the king, and he doesn't want to emphasize anything else.

After 4C I think 4D is fine, opener probably needs partner to have the ace rather than the KQ of hearts to make slam a good proposition, and he can't yet drive to 6.

4H to confirm the ace seems normal at that point, responder greatly suspects partner to be 3154 at this point so he must show the ace. It's not really an overstatement about hearts at this point.

At that point south has enough information to kick it in to slam. Should he try for 7? Maybe, you can certainly have a good grand opposite a partner with SIX clubs which is possible. If you wanted to try for 7 you should keep cuebidding since the 3rd round diamond control is what's important. I'm not sure if I purposely overlooked this for the sake of simplicity on the B/I forum, or if I thought that you would get to some bad grands via cuebidding and never be confident enough about it. Since most people will probably not even be in small slam unless you are playing an expert team, I would not really worry about 7.

You could certainly come up with auctions other than the one I gave to get to slam so it's not like mine is necessarily the best or the only way, I just think it's how I would bid with myself.

[kenrexford]

Here's my thoughts. Run if you must.

I agree that the first three calls are automatic, and I like the next three calls also.

However, I disagree as to a few major points, largely because of the likelihood that 3♣ could be manufactured. Give Opener a GF hand (in context of a response) with just long diamonds, and 3♣ may be his only option. Over 3♥, then, clubs are not agreed. Not remotely.

Then, 3NT could be the bid with that hand as well. Long diamonds, GF strength.

After 4♣, Opener still needs 4♦ to clarify that his hand was just damned diamonds, IMO. so, it is at that point that I don't like the finish. I think opener must bypass 4♦ to confirm clubs. Personally, I'd bid 4♥ as RKCB for clubs (cheapest out-of-focus major).

Give Opener ♠Axx ♥x ♦AKQxxx ♣AQx. I think the auction with that hand should/could be:

1♦-1NT
3♣-3♥
3NT-4♣
4♦

[ONEferBRID]

I have a simplistic scheme that I've never used [ " run if you must " ], and it won't work unless Opener HAS a genuine 2-suiter .

After:
1D - 1NT ( I'm assuming F1, playing 2/1 GF )
3C( 18+, 2-suiter, GF ) - ??

Now Responder just gives a 6 Ace "TURBO-type" reply ( in other words SHOWS his key cards implying a FIT in either of Opener's suits ).
Certain RKC steps are "skipped", namely 3D( Edit),3NT, 4C and 4D :

   skip 3D(Edit )as it would agree ♦ with a bad hand
3H = 0 or 3
3S = 1 or 4
   skip 3NT as it would be to play
   skip 4C as it would be agree ♣ with a bad hand
   skip 4D, better than 3D raise
4H = 2 and no Q's
4S = 2 and 1 Q
4NT = 2 and 2 Q's

After 4H = 2 and no Q's,
then Opener has the following continuations to choose from:
4S = specific K-ask
4NT = to play
5C = pass or correct to 5D
6C = pass or correct to 6D

If Opener feels lucky he makes the slam bid.
If missing the 2 minor Q's makes him squeamish, and rightly so, he
conservatively bids game ( 5C for pass or correct ).