[ArtK78]

Scoring: IMP

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(1) What is your plan for bidding this hand?

(2) If you open 2♣, the bidding goes:

2♣ - 2♦*
2♥** - 2♠***
3♠ - 4♦
?

* 2♥ would be negative, so 2♦ shows values
** 2♥ - Kokish
*** 2♠ - Automatic unless responder has long suit of his own

[kenrexford]

I think I'd start a more mundane 1♥, playing standard.

That said, I kind of like an idea I have been working on, where in a few sequences you can blast high to show a 5-6 canape hand with a two-loser holding. With this hand, a 2♦ opening (4+ spades) followed by a leap to show longer hearts and 6-5, would work. Or, 2♦...hearts...spades, perhaps.

Using a more standard methodology...

2♣-P-2♦-P-4♥ would work -- if defined as 6♥/5♠ and two losers.

[Free]

I would also start with 1♥ to avoid annoying high-level problems. If you have both Majors with longer ♥, Kokish isn't that great imo. A slight modification which usually helps is to have opener bid in transfer after Kokish, so here 3♥. Now partner can set trumps (♠) at 3-level.

[miguelm]

Sorry, could you explain what is "Kokish".... I know the man but I am afraid I don't know the gadget...
And what does 4D show....? What does the partnership knows by now.... does 4D set trumps...? Which one?

[jdonn]

I start with 1♥.

On problem 2, dare I ask if we have an agreement? I would most definitely want to play that 4♣/4♦ strongly agree hearts/spades, or perhaps that either minor suit bid is a cuebid for either major although that is much more difficult.

[Phil]

I'll start with 1♥ and while it might be the final contract it probably won't.

Reverse my majors and I don't have a problem with 2♣.

[kenrexford]

miguelm, on Nov 19 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

Sorry, could you explain what is "Kokish".... I know the man but I am afraid I don't know the gadget...
And what does 4D show....? What does the partnership knows by now.... does 4D set trumps...? Which one?

"Kokish" is a convention used in a strong 2♣ sequence. After the start 2♣-P-2♦-P-, Opener bids 2♥ to show one of two hand types -- 5+ hearts and unbalanced, or any balanced hand that is too strong for a 2NT rebid (maybe 24+).

Responder bids 2♠ as a relay to find out which. (There are many theories as to other options for Responder, as well.)

If Opener next bids 2NT, this shows balanced with 24+. Systems on.

If Opener bids anything else, this is natural but shows that hearts were real. So:

2♣-2♦
2♥!-2♠!
?

2NT = 24+ balanced
3♣ = 5+♥/4+♣
3♦ = 5+♥/4+♦
3♥ = 6+♥
3♠ = 5+♥/4+♠

etc.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Nov 19 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

I start with 1♥.

On problem 2, dare I ask if we have an agreement? I would most definitely want to play that 4♣/4♦ strongly agree hearts/spades, or perhaps that either minor suit bid is a cuebid for either major although that is much more difficult.

I think you MUST play that 4♣ shows a heart raise and 4♦ shows a spade raise, IMO.

[kfay]

kenrexford, on Nov 19 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 19 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

I start with 1♥.

On problem 2, dare I ask if we have an agreement? I would most definitely want to play that 4♣/4♦ strongly agree hearts/spades, or perhaps that either minor suit bid is a cuebid for either major although that is much more difficult.

I think you MUST play that 4♣ shows a heart raise and 4♦ shows a spade raise, IMO.

I agree with this, in principle.

As for what I would open on this hand...... mehhhhhh I kinda like 2♣.

[aguahombre]

If we don't play Kokish two-suiters opening 2C really suck for us.
1H

[ArtK78]

I have a question for all of you who believe that 4 of a minor over 3♠ must show a major suit fit of some sort.

Suppose you don't have one?

We had no explicit agreement as to how many hearts and spades this sequence showed. As responder, I assumed that my partner was bidding naturally - both majors, hearts longer than spades, but only 5-4 was guaranteed at this point. I held

xxx
A
QTxxx
Axxx

I have a great hand but I don't know where the hand is going yet. So I bid 4♦ to mark time and see what partner would do.

What happened gave me a tremendous headache and ultimately resulted in our losing the match. On the 5-6-2-0 hand, my partner bid 6♥! Certainly not the best bid I have ever seen. I assumed that he was 4-7 in the majors (at least) and I sat there for about 2 full minutes before deciding to pass. By the way, I was not thinking about bidding 6♠ - I was thinking about bidding 7♥.

The result was an inelegant 6♥ contract down 2 (hearts were 5-1) while 6♠ was cold (spades were 3-2 with the hand with the 3 card spade holding and the singleton heart in front of dummy). As our opponents rested in 4♠ at the other table, this was a huge swing.

I don't understand why the 5-6 hand cannot just bid 4♠ over 4♦, regardless of what you think 4♦ shows. Any comments?

[pooltuna]

I am going to try to survive the first round of bidding and open 1♥

[jdonn]

Art if you don't have a fit bid 3NT, don't worry about stoppers. The strong hand has them, or extra shape and will pull anyway. After all you are at 3♠, if you don't have a fit there is only one way to reach 3NT from there!

If you are too good for that, bid 4NT (yes of course you will want to make sure partner knows this is natural since you could have agreed spades but didn't.) If you are too good for that, bid 5NT or 6NT. But it's simply not feasible to have no way to agree the majors while doing more than simply signing off.

[whereagles]

amazing.. I agree with a sentence of josh (1st of last post).

anywayz, assuming 3♠ shows a 5-6 (what else can it be??), then 4♦ by responder must be some sort of support bid. I'll just follow up with 5NT and have pard pick a suit.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Nov 19 2009, 01:47 PM, said:

amazing.. I agree with a sentence of josh (1st of last post).

Actually I think you agree much less than you realize, though I could be misunderstanding your view. I care about having the stoppers, I'm simply very confident opener has them when he is that strong and balanced enough to pass 3NT. Or at least that he has enough help to combine with my minor suit length (I couldn't support either major) and stop the suits.

I've always been under the impression you don't care whether the suit is stopped at all or not.

[fachiru]

1) I got burned many times taking the "pure" opening action of 1♥. Enough is enough... I guess

2) Yes to a 4♠ bid at this junction to show the 5-♠suit, regardless of what 4♦ was.
Not only it completes an accurate description of the hand, you simply can't go wrong with it, leaving responder armed and in control.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Nov 19 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

Art if you don't have a fit bid 3NT, don't worry about stoppers. The strong hand has them, or extra shape and will pull anyway. After all you are at 3♠, if you don't have a fit there is only one way to reach 3NT from there!

If you are too good for that, bid 4NT (yes of course you will want to make sure partner knows this is natural since you could have agreed spades but didn't.) If you are too good for that, bid 5NT or 6NT. But it's simply not feasible to have no way to agree the majors while doing more than simply signing off.

Agree with this 100%.

However, if I was forced to have a method that allowed me to show some sort of minor holding, then I would flag those also:

4♣ = heart support
4♦ = spade support
4♥ = clubs
4♠ = diamonds

As stupid as that would be, at least it would allow me to support the major intelligently. Partner could always bid last train to see if I have a hand with extras or a hand where I have to bid this way because my stupid partner Art wants to show his stupid diamond suit.

[ArtK78]

kenrexford, on Nov 19 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 19 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

Art if you don't have a fit bid 3NT, don't worry about stoppers. The strong hand has them, or extra shape and will pull anyway. After all you are at 3♠, if you don't have a fit there is only one way to reach 3NT from there!

If you are too good for that, bid 4NT (yes of course you will want to make sure partner knows this is natural since you could have agreed spades but didn't.) If you are too good for that, bid 5NT or 6NT. But it's simply not feasible to have no way to agree the majors while doing more than simply signing off.

Agree with this 100%.

However, if I was forced to have a method that allowed me to show some sort of minor holding, then I would flag those also:

4♣ = heart support
4♦ = spade support
4♥ = clubs
4♠ = diamonds

As stupid as that would be, at least it would allow me to support the major intelligently. Partner could always bid last train to see if I have a hand with extras or a hand where I have to bid this way because my stupid partner Art wants to show his stupid diamond suit.

Ken, you missed the point (much like my partner missed the point).

The purpose of my 4♦ bid was not to introduce diamonds as a place to play. The purpose of my bid was to allow my partner to clarify the nature of his hand (as I mentioned, I considered it to be a mark time bid). Now, if he had just rebid 4♠ like a rational human being, we would have arrived at 6♠.

I find it interesting that the various ideas floated in this thread don't really solve the problem on this hand. Unless you have a conventional way to show 5-6 in the majors with a strong hand, you are really adrift. Josh suggested bidding 4NT (3NT really does not do justice to the hand). Perhaps partner will work out to bid 5♠ over 4NT, assuming that he reads 4NT as natural. But my partner could not even work out to bid 4♠ over 4♦, so getting him to bid spades over 4NT may be too much to ask.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 19 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

The purpose of my bid was to allow my partner to clarify the nature of his hand (as I mentioned, I considered it to be a mark time bid).

If partner is 4522 then what is the nature of his hand? 4513? 4504? Should partner raise diamonds with 3, but how do you get him to clarify the nature of his hand if you are 3244? Partner doesn't always have an extra card in either major you know.

Quote

I find it interesting that the various ideas floated in this thread don't really solve the problem on this hand.

The problem on this hand is easy to solve. Your partner should have opened 1♥! Look what you have and there is still no slam opposite that 2♣ opener.

[Jlall]

Agree you should flag over this 3S bid