[wyman]

Scoring: IMP

---

2/1, some gadgets if you need them.

1H - (1S) - 2D - (P)
??

1) What's the "correct" call?
2) Rate the following calls: 2H, 2S, 3C, 3H, 4H, and any others you deem relevant.
3) Is the consensus that 2H is F1 or passable? Is 3H GF or inv. (if inv, what types of hands)?

TIA.

[cherdanno]

3H.

[jdonn]

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

[Phil]

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

2♥ should not be passable. Do we need to jump around on a 15 count with non-solid hearts?

Still, I bid 3♥.

[maggieb]

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

2♥ should not be passable.

How did you come to this conclusion? There are huge benefits to playing 2H is NF and only a few small downsides.

1) The most obvious benefit is that you get to stop low when partner is light and/or you are in a misfit.

2) A second benefit is that this allows you to immediately limit your hand.

3) It's not like there aren't ways to handle strong hands with 6 bad hearts.

[pooltuna]

wyman, on Nov 13 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> Qx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> AKJTxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> T </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> Axx </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

2/1, some gadgets if you need them.

1H - (1S) - 2D - (P)
??

1) What's the "correct" call?
2) Rate the following calls: 2H, 2S, 3C, 3H, 4H, and any others you deem relevant.
3) Is the consensus that 2H is F1 or passable? Is 3H GF or inv. (if inv, what types of hands)?

TIA.

1) I don't know about correct but IMO the %age call is 4♥
2)4♥>3♥>>>>>2♥>2♠>3♣
3)a 2♥ call is too dependent on system agreements to respond. 3♥ is nearly game forcing after a 2♦ call (it is hard for me to imagine a hand that would pass), again system agreements

[jdonn]

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

2♥ should not be passable. Do we need to jump around on a 15 count with non-solid hearts?

Still, I bid 3♥.

wtf more bizarro world?

[cherdanno]

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

2♥ should not be passable. Do we need to jump around on a 15 count with non-solid hearts?

Still, I bid 3♥.

2♥ is NF in BWS. The obvious benefit is that you can bid 2♦ with hands that are not worth forcing to the 3-level without a fit.
(I know I am saying the same as Maggie but I think it's more useful to think about how for 2♦ should be forcing.)

[Jlall]

cherdanno, on Nov 13 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

2♥ should not be passable. Do we need to jump around on a 15 count with non-solid hearts?

Still, I bid 3♥.

2♥ is NF in BWS. The obvious benefit is that you can bid 2♦ with hands that are not worth forcing to the 3-level without a fit.
(I know I am saying the same as Maggie but I think it's more useful to think about how for 2♦ should be forcing.)

What? I cannot find it online, can you show me a reference? I am almost positive it at least used to be the case that it was forcing. If I am wrong, sorry!

I also feel like I'm in bizzaro world because I've never heard of anyone playing 2H here as NF. It reminds me of when jdonn and drg told me everyone played new suits as forcing after an overcall, and one told me that was BWS also, but they were wrong!

[Phil]

Jlall, on Nov 13 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Nov 13 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 02:52 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

2♥ is passable, 2♠ is pointless, 3♣ is a psych. 3♥ is gf and seems fine with 4♥ also being an option.

2♥ should not be passable. Do we need to jump around on a 15 count with non-solid hearts?

Still, I bid 3♥.

2♥ is NF in BWS. The obvious benefit is that you can bid 2♦ with hands that are not worth forcing to the 3-level without a fit.
(I know I am saying the same as Maggie but I think it's more useful to think about how for 2♦ should be forcing.)

What? I cannot find it online, can you show me a reference? I am almost positive it at least used to be the case that it was forcing. If I am wrong, sorry!

I also feel like I'm in bizzaro world because I've never heard of anyone playing 2H here as NF. It reminds me of when jdonn and drg told me everyone played new suits as forcing after an overcall, and one told me that was BWS also, but they were wrong!

Shhh....he's on a roll.

[Jlall]

lol but cherdano would never say something like "its BWS" and not be able to back it up ime so even though I was totally sure, I now feel I'm probably wrong. Also Han, Clee, Jdonn, Cherdano have all said they think it's NF and some have indicated its crazy to play it otherwise and I had no idea that anyone would play this as NF so clearly I'm out of touch when it comes to this auction.

[cherdanno]

Jlall, on Nov 13 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Nov 13 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

2♥ is NF in BWS.

What? I cannot find it online, can you show me a reference? I am almost positive it at least used to be the case that it was forcing. If I am wrong, sorry!

I also feel like I'm in bizzaro world because I've never heard of anyone playing 2H here as NF. It reminds me of when jdonn and drg told me everyone played new suits as forcing after an overcall, and one told me that was BWS also, but they were wrong!

[Edit: I guess I can't read today either.]

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...=bwsall.html#VF
V.F:

Quote

A simple new-suit response over an overcall is forcing (by an unpassed hand). If at the two level, it is forcing to the next level of opener’s suit.

[Jlall]

cherdanno, on Nov 13 2009, 04:59 PM, said:

Lol, the link I have says both things, you must feel like in a double-bizzarro world!

No it only says you are right, the link says nothing about an auction like 1C 1H p 1S.

[jdonn]

I always thought it was totally normal that opener's suit rebid, cheapest notrump rebid, and simple raise of responder's suit were all NF. New suits, cuebids, and jumps were forcing. The BWS quote is not worded very clearly but I think it agrees with me?

You got me on the overcall one (years ago partner) but I'm sure on this one!

Phil, on Nov 13 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

Shhh....he's on a roll.

Hell yeah I am.

[Jlall]

OK i tilted and texted a bunch of people. Results:

Bob Hamman = Forcing
John Hurd = Forcing
Gavin Wolpert = Forcing
John Kranyak = Forcing
Jeremy Fournier = Forcing
Greg Hinze= Forcing
Kevin Bathurst = Forcing, but some old schoolers don't play it that way.
Hemant Lall = Forcing
Bob Blanchard = Forcing

Joe Grue = NF
Chris Compton = NF
Shane Blanchard= NF
Chris Hamman = NF
Kent Mignocchi = I don't play it as forcing, but some play 2D promises a rebid.

Geoff Hampson= Good question. Not by old fashioned bridge rules, but experts often play it forcing now.

He then added: I think F1 is a must in all non strong club systems.

I want to object to Joe Grue because he is used to negative free bids and is retarded obv (jk love you Joey!)

As more people respond I will update my poll.

[Jlall]

As a side note, I assume that you guys are all playing 1H 1S 2D p 3C as forcing and showing extras?

If so, you must rebid 2H on a wide range of hands including hands with clubs that are minimum and balanced hands with no spade stoppers. So 2H is often a five card suit anyways, so you don't gain very much by being able to pass it.

Also you lose a tempo in your auction if you must always start with 2S then bid 3H to show the sixth, and the space you lose is important because you want partner to be able to cuebid over a forcing 2H to indicate extras.

Also you have a much wider range to start with a cuebid now.

Also there are very few hands that I would bid 2D that would want to pass a 2H bid with. If I'm weak I will always have a 2D then 3D bid, or I would have probably started with a neg X.

Anyways I've definitely learned that 2H forcing is not universal.

[fred]

jdonn, on Nov 13 2009, 10:12 PM, said:

I always thought it was totally normal that opener's suit rebid, cheapest notrump rebid, and simple raise of responder's suit were all NF.

That's exactly what I do in my partnership with Brad Moss, but my perception is that this approach is definitely not normal.

When I played with some of Canada's leading players we used the rule "new suit at 2-level always promises a rebid below game".

I have also played "new suit at the 2-level is forcing to 3 of that suit".

I have no strong feelings as to which approach is best (whatever that means). It wouldn't surprise me at all if the right answer (whatever that means) varies according to things like form of scoring, vulnerability, etc. Partnership factors like opening bid style, if 2NT by responder would be artificial, etc. may come into play as well.

Fred Gtielman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Jlall]

I didn't have Freds phone # to text him, thanks for reply

[fred]

Jlall, on Nov 13 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

I didn't have Freds phone # to text him, thanks for reply

I am untextable - no cell phone (a "happy not to have a cellphone" - not a "isn't that amusing?" ).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

So does that mean Fred says I'm wrong but counts in my favor in the poll anyway because he plays it that way?

Btw what is Fournier doing in the poll?! (I love you!)

Also if we consider you've got me on this one, this is the third time not the second. Remember 1♣ P 1♠ 3♦ P P 3♥?