[VixTD]

With most of my partners I play a weak (12-14) no trump and doubles of overcalls are penalty-oriented, with Lebensohl. After:

1NT (2♣) (Asptro, ♥+other) double is a penalty double of the anchor suit (hearts)

1NT (2♣) (any single-suiter) double is value-showing, looking for a penalty.

Does anyone have any advice for defending against two-way overcalls of the following kind:

1NT (2♣) (either clubs or both majors)?

In particular, what's the best use of double?

[athene]

Hi,

If you open 1NT and they overcall in a natural suit, it's better to play double for T/O. If you are really happy with penalty doubles here then OK, but I would recommend not.

If they overcall something artificial, that's where it gets murky. People often double the artificial bid just to "show values" but it's not enough just to agree this. You have to agree what your subsequent actions mean. For example, if opponents bid something else, is pass forcing? Is a new suit forcing? Is double penalties?


I would recommend playing like this:-

If they overcall 2♣, just play "system on". So double is Stayman and all other bids are as though no intervention.

If they overcall 2♦+ natural, double is T/O from both sides.

If they overcall 2♦+ artificial, double just shows values, and when they bid on, double is still T/O from both sides.

If they overcall 2♦+ artificial and you pass and then double later on, that's also T/O.

[TylerE]

That works great until the opps figure out that they have nearly risk-free lead directors available.

[maggieb]

athene, on Nov 3 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

If they overcall 2♣, just play "system on".  So double is Stayman and all other bids are as though no intervention.

If they overcall 2♦+ natural, double is T/O from both sides.

If they overcall 2♦+ artificial, double just shows values, and when they bid on, double is still T/O from both sides.

If they overcall 2♦+ artificial and you pass and then double later on, that's also T/O.

1) If they overcall 2♣ majors, then double should be penalty oriented.
2) If they overcall 2♦+ artificial, and you double to show values, why does it make sense to play double is takeout? I play pass is takeout and double is penalty.

TylerE said:

That works great until the opps figure out that they have nearly risk-free lead directors available.

Is this just nonsense? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[TylerE]

I was referring to the previous post that was basically: All doubles are always takeout.

[jdonn]

Takeout doubles do not make overcalls risk free, for several reasons.

[Codo]

TylerE, on Nov 4 2009, 01:15 AM, said:

That works great until the opps figure out that they have nearly risk-free lead directors available.

??? No way

[VixTD]

athene, on Nov 3 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

If you open 1NT and they overcall in a natural suit, it's better to play double for T/O. If you are really happy with penalty doubles here then OK, but I would recommend not.

I know this is a widely-held view, but not among my partners, unfortunately. I guess I'm stuck with playing penalty doubles here.

Klinger recommends that the double is value showing but short in the suit doubled, so that partner is better placed to know what to do if it's passed to him. I just wondered if this was a common treatment, or if anyone had any better ideas.

I am aware of the need to agree what later passes and doubles mean, and I generally play doubles of their suit bids after we have doubled 2♣ as penalties and pass as forcing. I know it's better to play these the other way round, but my partners won't do this.

[Quantumcat]

If you play penalty doubles, you can only double them when you have a stack in their suit, while if you play takeout doubles, you can penalise them also when you don't have a good fit, but you have the majority of the points. For instance, if you have

KQ2
AJ6
QJ7
Q765

you opened 1NT, natural 2D overcall and your partner makes a takeout double, you can pass due to lack of good fit. But if he has to cue their suit to show a takeout double because you play penalty doubles, you have to play in a bit of a misfit. You might even have:

82
AK5
QJ983
AQ6

And you have to play in a misfitting 3NT instead of penalising.

And if the 1NT opener tries to reopen when he can after 1NT (overcall) pass (pass), you'll rarely get to miss out on penalising them as responder.

Playing penalty doubles, you gain in one case: where opener can't reopen and you have a trump stack. But you lose anytime your side doesn't have a good contract and neither of you has a trump stack (you can penalise instead of playing a misfit) and you can penalise when opener has a trump stack and responder has some strength and wants to act immediately.

This is what a lot of people play after a direct overcall of 1NT:

- Takeout doubles of the implied suit, takeout doubles of the suit bid if the actual suit is unknown, takeout doubles of the lower suit if 2 suits are known but their length is not, takeout doubles of the longer suit if length is known.

- Bids from the next suit to 2S are non forcing

- From 2NT to 3S are transfers (transfer to their suit is stayman), 3NT to play

- 4-level jumps are natural slam tries with a void in their suit ("suit" determined in the same way as for takeout doubles)

Further action by responder:

-penalty if the suit is a different one than was doubled for takeout

-takeout if the same suit that was originally doubled for takeout

-takeout if he bid a suit and opener didn't get to bid

-penalty if opener supported the suit bid or accepted the transfer

You might like to agree on action by opener if responder's bid gets overcalled, too.

-If a transfer gets overcalled, accepting at the 3 level shows 4-card support, passing denies it (e.g. 1NT (P) 2D (3C) 3H) and accepting at the 2-level shows 3-card support, passing denies it (e.g. 1NT (P) 2D (X) 2H). Redoubling in the previous situation shows a small doubleton heart, and thereafter all doubles by both people are penalties.

-If stayman gets overcalled, bidding a major shows five cards, passing shows at least one four card major, and doubling shows no major (thereafter all doubles by both people are penalties).

[the hog]

Quantumcat, on Nov 7 2009, 10:03 AM, said:

For instance, if you have

KQ2
AJ6
QJ7
Q765

you opened 1NT, natural 2D overcall and your partner makes a takeout double, you can pass due to lack of good fit.

snipped

Do you play for money by any chance? If so, where and when?

[Quantumcat]

---

In 2DX, declarer makes about 6 tricks, in 3NT, I can only see 8 tricks. If you give someone the jack of clubs so there are nine tricks, in favourable, you'll get 500 instead of 400. I'm sure the East hand is good enough that a few people might overcall unfavourable. If you don't know absolutely for sure that your contract is making, isn't it better to take a definite plus, anyway?

[Mbodell]

Quantumcat, on Nov 6 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

If you play penalty doubles, you can only double them when you have a stack in their suit, while if you play takeout doubles, you can penalise them also when you don't have a good fit, but you have the majority of the points.

It depends on the quality of your opponents, and what you mean by stack. With 4 cards in their suit and 8 points, one can double for penalty. With 3 cards in their suit and 10 points, one can double for penalty. Maybe its because I'm not playing world class opponents all the time, and maybe its because strong nt is so common in the US, but people overcall on terrible hands and terrible suits all the time against a weak nt, and the penalty double has lead to quite good boards overall. It is true that when you have half the deck and shortness in their suit and a flat hand you can be sort of stuck, but that is rarer for me than having a penalty double. YMMV depending on your opps.

[Vampyr]

Mbodell, on Nov 8 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

people overcall on terrible hands and terrible suits all the time against a weak nt, and the penalty double has led to quite good boards overall.

I am very surprised to hear this, as it is normal to make sounder overcalls over a weak NT than over a strong one.

[helene_t]

Vampyr, on Nov 8 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

Mbodell, on Nov 8 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

people overcall on terrible hands and terrible suits all the time against a weak nt, and the penalty double has led to quite good boards overall.

I am very surprised to hear this, as it is normal to make sounder overcalls over a weak NT than over a strong one.

No. Against a strong notrump, you are under no pressure to bid as the opps probably have the balance of power. You overcall if you have decent O-D and your hand fit in your structure. Otherwise you just pass, regardledd of strength. Besides, you probably play an artificial double which means the meaning of non-dbl interventions become more well-defined in terms of shape. For example if you play Woolsey you can show which of your two suits is longer so partner can chose the least disastrous contract in case of no primary fit.

Against a weak notrump, some people seem to think that the cannot afford to pass with some awkward 14-points 5431-type even if it doesn't fit in their structure. So they overcall on mediocre 5-card suits without promising a second suit.

I am not saying that the above logic is sound, or that everyone subscribes to it. But if Mbodell has the experience that people make more risky overcalls against a weak notrump than against a strong notrump, it doesn't surprise me. I have the same experience myself although I must say my experience is confounded by the fact that I my weak-NT experience is almost exclusively from England.

[P_Marlowe]

hi,
we play double of an art, intervention., as showing a bal. hand,
a kind of dixon double, see dixon defence against multi 2d., following
doubles are for penalty.

if 2c is clubs or majors, i would play x as take out, but showing a
bal. hand would work either, the adv. would be, that double would
have a similar meaning as the before mentioned ones.

2h and 2s should be natural nonforcing.

with kind regards
marlowe

[the hog]

Quantumcat, on Nov 8 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

---

In 2DX, declarer makes about 6 tricks, in 3NT, I can only see 8 tricks. If you give someone the jack of clubs so there are nine tricks, in favourable, you'll get 500 instead of 400. I'm sure the East hand is good enough that a few people might overcall unfavourable. If you don't know absolutely for sure that your contract is making, isn't it better to take a definite plus, anyway?

6 tricks? I can see 7 and maybe even an eighth.