[blackshoe]

gnasher, on Nov 4 2009, 05:20 AM, said:

The example in the original post is both unethical and illegal. I've quoted the laws that make it illegal.

You quoted a couple of laws, some of which arguably have nothing to do with the action in question. You missed this one though:

Law 72B1 said:

A player must not infringe a law intentionally, even if there is a prescribed rectification he is willing to accept.

"Must not" is the strongest prohibition in the laws. Since failure to uniformly call for cards by naming the denomination and rank of the card is an infraction of Law 46A, Law 72B1 would apply to the scenario in the OP. To me, that puts paid to any argument that doing so is "okay".

[ggwhiz]

Quote

sorry. i don't get it. if it is not unethical or illegal, what's wrong with it?

I don't agree that it is not unethical and if it's not illegal it should be. Keep chasing away the Flight B and C players like this and you can start holding tournaments in a phone booth.

Eight trips to the mound in one inning of the World Series is legal but greatly harms the game. MLB will deal with that in the off-season but the Bridge World has never been able to act quickly or comprehensively enough. It's up to the players.

[hanp]

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand? If you saw somebody do it, would you find it funny, disgusting, or a bit of both? Does it matter if the opponents are LOLs or Bermuda Bowl winners?

[helene_t]

I saw the advice in one of Ron Klinger's books to discard a diamond on hearts and v.v. in the hope that declarer doesn't notice.

Unethical? No. Unsportsmanlike? IMHO not but I might be wrong.

As for the OP question: I think it is unethical. That said, one should be careful with accusing someone of making such a coup intentionally. "High heart" just means the highest of the hearts in dummy. It could be the 4 from 42, regardless of whether the 3 was out, in your hand, or with an opponent. It could be the 3 from 32.

Playing the Q from QJT9 when you want it to get covered and the 9 when you don't is certainly not unethical, and if someone finds it unsportsmanlike I would strongly disagree.

[ArtK78]

hanp, on Nov 4 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand?

The times that I have seen this done is when dummy is high but without an entry, and declarer is in hand. And it was always done as a joke.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on Nov 4 2009, 08:46 AM, said:

hanp, on Nov 4 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand?

The times that I have seen this done is when dummy is high but without an entry, and declarer is in hand. And it was always done as a joke.

Yep, in tournaments it is a common joke. At the club, unfortunately not.

[hanp]

I've seen it two times this fall. The first time was actually the other way around, declarer was in dummy and wanted to be in hand. Declarer grabbed a card from hand but dummy stopped him before he played. Declarer put the card back, thought for a few minutes and then quickly played the card from hand before dummy could stop him. So perhaps I should count that as 2 so that I've seen it three times!

It was in a serious tournament and was not meant as a joke. The first time the opponent was a former Bermuda Bowl winner and accepted the card without thinking about it. The second time the opponents were less strong.

[gnasher]

blackshoe, on Nov 4 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

You quoted a couple of laws, some of which arguably have nothing to do with the action in question.

I quoted one law (74A3) which makes the coup described in the original post illegal, and one law (74B4) which makes it illegal to do something that was mentioned later in the thread ("never claim - play every hand out no matter how trivial the play of the hand. In that way, the opponents would have to expend all of their energy on defense of non-existent problems and it would tire them out.")

Are you objecting to my incorrect use of the plural, or are you really saying that Law 74A3 arguably has nothing to do with the action in question? If the latter, then argue it.

Quote

You missed this one though:

Law 72B1 said:

A player must not infringe a law intentionally, even if there is a prescribed rectification he is willing to accept.

"Must not" is the strongest prohibition in the laws. Since failure to uniformly call for cards by naming the denomination and rank of the card is an infraction of Law 46A, Law 72B1 would apply to the scenario in the OP. To me, that puts paid to any argument that doing so is "okay".

This doesn't make any distinction between people who call for "a high heart" because they feel like it, and people who call for "a high heart" because they want to provoke a misplay. The argument, as I understand it, is that if the former is only a very minor infraction then so is the latter. You can't refute that argument by saying "But they're both illegal."

[barmar]

Jlall, on Nov 3 2009, 06:06 PM, said:

So is calling for the jack in hopes that they cover it wrong when you have JT9 in dummy? Or KJT in dummy and I call for the jack hoping they play the queen? What if I have KJT in dummy and Axxxx in my hand and no entry so I call for the ten or low hoping they duck and I can take 5 tricks?

I know I do stuff like this sometimes, I will def stop doing it of course if it is wrong/cheating even though everyone I know will also do this. FWIW I never thought it was against the rules or even unethical.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There's no question that you're allowed to play any card you want from dummy. At issue is the manner in which you designate the card. Specifying the suit and rank is the prescribed method, so this can never be wrong.

Are you asking whether it's unethical to choose a particular card from equals in the hopes of tricking the opponent, e.g. the J to provoke a cover, the T to provoke a duck? I don't think so. The law we've been discussing prohibits intentionally committing an infraction in order to gain an advantage, the specific infraction being an incomplete designation of a card. Since calling for "heart ten" is not an infraction in the first place, it doesn't violate that law. You're allowed to gain an advantage by your choice of cards, but not by using an incomplete designation to refer to it for that specific purpose.

As has also been said, proving that someone used an incomplete designation for this purpose would be pretty difficult. I think the only way would be to hear him bragging in the bar "I called for a high heart, and the LOL fell for it and ruffed her partner's winner."

[pooltuna]

hanp, on Nov 4 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand? If you saw somebody do it, would you find it funny, disgusting, or a bit of both? Does it matter if the opponents are LOLs or Bermuda Bowl winners?

On BBO I do this all the time with the same result everytime

[aguahombre]

pooltuna, on Nov 4 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

hanp, on Nov 4 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand? If you saw somebody do it, would you find it funny, disgusting, or a bit of both? Does it matter if the opponents are LOLs or Bermuda Bowl winners?

On BBO I do this all the time with the same result everytime

Cute

[ggwhiz]

Quote

I saw the advice in one of Ron Klinger's books to discard a diamond on hearts and v.v. in the hope that declarer doesn't notice.

In Helen's Klinger color coup type example, it is clearly OK as long as you frame the card played. If it is snapped face down ASAP it isn't close to fine and who can prove that? Sharp practice against lesser players in any form damages our game.

I feel that erring on the above and beyond ethical side is a worthy goal that only our individual players can control. I also don't think that color coup type example ever works unless you fail to "frame" the card played or you are just screwing a rookie.

Have you ever turned your card real fast, had declarer ask if they could see it and said, "sorry, the trick has been turned"? If so, you should take up another game.

[EricK]

What I have learnt from this thread is that if you have ♥A8 in dummy and are playing against someone who is hard of hearing, then saying "Top heart" (or "low heart" etc) is an infraction, and saying "Ace of hearts" or "Eight of hearts" is unethical.

Probably best to play another suit altogether.

[blackshoe]

EricK, on Nov 5 2009, 04:12 AM, said:

What I have learnt from this thread is that if you have ♥A8 in dummy and are playing against someone who is hard of hearing, then saying "Top heart" (or "low heart" etc) is an infraction, and saying "Ace of hearts" or "Eight of hearts" is unethical.

Probably best to play another suit altogether.

It is never unethical to comply with the laws.

[cherdanno]

blackshoe, on Nov 5 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

EricK, on Nov 5 2009, 04:12 AM, said:

What I have learnt from this thread is that if you have ♥A8 in dummy and are playing against someone who is hard of hearing, then saying "Top heart" (or "low heart" etc) is an infraction, and saying "Ace of hearts" or "Eight of hearts" is unethical.

Probably best to play another suit altogether.

It is never unethical to comply with the laws.

This isn't the Laws sections. Jokes are allowed here, and you should feel free to recognize a post as such, and react accordingly.

[gwnn]

jokes are allowed but are they ethical?

[Phil]

hanp, on Nov 4 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand? If you saw somebody do it, would you find it funny, disgusting, or a bit of both? Does it matter if the opponents are LOLs or Bermuda Bowl winners?

Ok I did this once. I was a hung over 18 year old playing in a club game in Shelby, MT after a sectional in Kalispell in about 1982. I had a squeeze position, but my communication was such that I was in the wrong hand and I couldn't kill the entry.

So I led from the wrong hand. LHO followed and I was soon claiming. The opponents said well played.

I felt pretty stupid and have ever since, even now.

[JoAnneM]

This is sexist I think we should refer to them as LOM for a while.

[Phil]

JoAnneM, on Nov 5 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

This is sexist I think we should refer to them as LOM for a while.

I prefer BOL

[suokko]

aguahombre, on Nov 4 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 4 2009, 08:46 AM, said:

hanp, on Nov 4 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

How many of you have ever tried to gain an advantage by calling for a card from dummy, knowing that you were in hand?

The times that I have seen this done is when dummy is high but without an entry, and declarer is in hand. And it was always done as a joke.

Yep, in tournaments it is a common joke. At the club, unfortunately not.

Only once vs me. That time it was clear joke because multiple times Finnish champion had just got bad news and full count of hand. He first commented that he has to endplay me to make the game. Then called for card from dead dummy that would have endplayed me (in trick 5 if I remember correctly). After that he simple claimed one down and moved to next table.

At the time I was still fairly new youngester. So he was more like showing of how to do endplays and read the cards.