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I read in a recent topic that experts seldom downgrade before certain evidence tells them so. In what kind of situations would you downgrade?
For a starter i would offer xxx in a suit bid or overcalled on my right. off course there a many more....
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downgrade situations? can you add one of your own?
#1
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Posted 2009-November-01, 10:45
Olivier.
#2
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Posted 2009-November-01, 12:32
I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean by downgrade. Are you referring to considering a hand is worth less than its value in hcps? Or is it certain situations, auctions and seats in which given holding might not pull their full weight? Or both?
Regarding hcps: 4333s, stiff honour(s), lack of intermediates, queens and jacks rather than ace and kings, lack of filling honours in your long suit... I probably wouldn't downgrade a hand for any single one of these on reasons but might do so with a combination (eg. I wouldn't think of QJx QJx QJx QJxx as an opening hand).
Situational: singleton K/Q/J in suits that the opponent left of you has shown a LOT of strength in is good reason to assume the holding won't be worth what it usually is. A 1NT overcall behind you, especially holding a lot of finessable honours like queens and kings. Holdings like xxx in a suit bid by your RHO means your p will have the missing honours if they need to be finessed, so that is bad. Basically whenever you have good reason to assume you or your partner's honours will be under the enemy honours is not a good sign.
I tend to be quite optimistic though and very rarely downgrade a hand, I think it doesn't very happen you can be sure a given hand is worth less. You definitely don't want to be missing games just because you 'may' have your stiff king dropped. But then again I'm not an expert either so I may be wrong
Regarding hcps: 4333s, stiff honour(s), lack of intermediates, queens and jacks rather than ace and kings, lack of filling honours in your long suit... I probably wouldn't downgrade a hand for any single one of these on reasons but might do so with a combination (eg. I wouldn't think of QJx QJx QJx QJxx as an opening hand).
Situational: singleton K/Q/J in suits that the opponent left of you has shown a LOT of strength in is good reason to assume the holding won't be worth what it usually is. A 1NT overcall behind you, especially holding a lot of finessable honours like queens and kings. Holdings like xxx in a suit bid by your RHO means your p will have the missing honours if they need to be finessed, so that is bad. Basically whenever you have good reason to assume you or your partner's honours will be under the enemy honours is not a good sign.
I tend to be quite optimistic though and very rarely downgrade a hand, I think it doesn't very happen you can be sure a given hand is worth less. You definitely don't want to be missing games just because you 'may' have your stiff king dropped. But then again I'm not an expert either so I may be wrong
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#3
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2009-November-01, 14:02
theres no stopping if you start downgrading left and right. it's a sneaky, slippery slope! 
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#4
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Posted 2009-November-02, 08:46
I pretty much never downgrade. That said, I held something close to:
KJx KJx KJx Kxxx
the other day, and refused to open 1NT.
KJx KJx KJx Kxxx
the other day, and refused to open 1NT.
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.
"gwnn" said:
rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
#5
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2009-November-02, 19:25
why?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
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Posted 2009-November-02, 23:25
#7
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Posted 2009-November-02, 23:50
From what I have seen, most of the regulars on BBO forums upgrade much more often than they downgrade. And as a general rule, without any examples, that is probably wise. Better players figure they will gain by better play in marginal contracts at IMPS.
As Far as NT openers are concerned, I downgrade a tick for KQ tight, QJ tight and let the rest of the clever point counting variances remain mildly interesting.
As Far as NT openers are concerned, I downgrade a tick for KQ tight, QJ tight and let the rest of the clever point counting variances remain mildly interesting.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2009-November-04, 09:41
Agree with aqua, except I don't downgrade KQ or QJ tight when I'm only considering the opening of NT.
Usually most downgrading occurs during mid auction when the information infront of you provides you with a fair idea of the honour locations and know how well (or bad) your honours are placed with respect to it.
In general, just remember to not underestimate Aces and not overestimate stray queens and jacks.
Usually most downgrading occurs during mid auction when the information infront of you provides you with a fair idea of the honour locations and know how well (or bad) your honours are placed with respect to it.
In general, just remember to not underestimate Aces and not overestimate stray queens and jacks.
- Andy -
We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
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Posted 2009-November-04, 12:04
andy_h, on Nov 4 2009, 10:41 AM, said:
Agree with aqua, except I don't downgrade KQ or QJ tight when I'm only considering the opening of NT.
Usually most downgrading occurs during mid auction when the information infront of you provides you with a fair idea of the honour locations and know how well (or bad) your honours are placed with respect to it.
In general, just remember to not underestimate Aces and not overestimate stray queens and jacks.
Usually most downgrading occurs during mid auction when the information infront of you provides you with a fair idea of the honour locations and know how well (or bad) your honours are placed with respect to it.
In general, just remember to not underestimate Aces and not overestimate stray queens and jacks.
WHAT!!! A voice of reason in the wilderness???
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the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
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