[gwnn]

1♣-p-1♠-x
XX-p-p-1NT

xx was not support but strong (could have 3 spades but not necessarily)

what is 1NT?

[manudude03]

Re-takeout for me. Something like a 1-4-5-3 and doesn't want to defend 1♠XX.

[Jlall]

manudude03, on Oct 31 2009, 06:47 AM, said:

Re-takeout for me. Something like a 1-4-5-3 and doesn't want to defend 1♠XX.

Why can't that shape just bid 2D?

As far as I can tell there are 3 relevant hand types, natural 1N bids (3442, 2443, maybe 3433, 2434 if you would ever double with that shape), natural 2C bids (1444, 0(445)), and equal length 5-5 type hands. If you don't have equal length you can just bid a red suit once partner passes.

I think you should bid 1N with both natural 1N type hands, and 5-5 red type hands. You can simply run if Xed in 1N with a 5-5 red type hand. You might still belong in clubs if partner has 5 clubs and you are 2443, so partner can still bid 2C expecting you to pass with a balanced hand or bid with 5-5 reds if he is something like 3235. He should not be worried you will pass that with 1552, if that was right partner would have bid 2C over the redouble to begin with.

Running to 2C immediately can be 1444 or 0445. As usual you have too many sequences available here because after you run to 1N you can XX, bid 2C, or bid 2D. I wouldn't worry about blowing your mind with thinking about all the options and trying to define them. You could but it would be a waste for just 1 auction. General meta rules as "1N=natural unless you later XX to run, everything else=natural suit" are more useful since they cover a wider range of hands.

Another more advanced general rule is that bidding 1N then running to the lower of 2 suits shows better suit quality there, bidding 1N then XXing shows better suit quality in the higher of the 2 suits.

In this particular auction it's probably better to run to 2C with 5-5 reds just in case they are gonna pass out 1N and you land in a silly spot. This would mean bidding 1N with 3 suiters that include clubs, then running to 2C when doubled. But again I wouldn't really assume that switch lol.

[manudude03]

Jlall, on Oct 31 2009, 12:06 PM, said:

manudude03, on Oct 31 2009, 06:47 AM, said:

Re-takeout for me. Something like a 1-4-5-3 and doesn't want to defend 1♠XX.

Why can't that shape just bid 2D?

As far as I can tell there are 3 relevant hand types, natural 1N bids (3442, 2443, maybe 3433, 2434 if you would ever double with that shape), natural 2C bids (1444, 0(445)), and equal length 5-5 type hands. If you don't have equal length you can just bid a red suit once partner passes.

I think you should bid 1N with both natural 1N type hands, and 5-5 red type hands. You can simply run if Xed in 1N with a 5-5 red type hand. You might still belong in clubs if partner has 5 clubs and you are 2443, so partner can still bid 2C expecting you to pass with a balanced hand or bid with 5-5 reds if he is something like 3235. He should not be worried you will pass that with 1552, if that was right partner would have bid 2C over the redouble to begin with.

Running to 2C immediately can be 1444 or 0445. As usual you have too many sequences available here because after you run to 1N you can XX, bid 2C, or bid 2D. I wouldn't worry about blowing your mind with thinking about all the options and trying to define them. You could but it would be a waste for just 1 auction. General meta rules as "1N=natural unless you later XX to run, everything else=natural suit" are more useful since they cover a wider range of hands.

Another more advanced general rule is that bidding 1N then running to the lower of 2 suits shows better suit quality there, bidding 1N then XXing shows better suit quality in the higher of the 2 suits.

In this particular auction it's probably better to run to 2C with 5-5 reds just in case they are gonna pass out 1N and you land in a silly spot. This would mean bidding 1N with 3 suiters that include clubs, then running to 2C when doubled. But again I wouldn't really assume that switch lol.

2D for me says that clubs isn't an option (so something like a 2461 or 2452 with strong diamonds). 2C is basically the same thing as 1NT, but stronger (rare yes, but does occasionally come up).

Playing in a silly 1N undoubled won't be the end of the world, you could end up playing in some 7 card fit doubled and if 1N gets doubled, partner can always XX himself to ask you to choose between the minors (2D with 1453 2C with 1444). This is all based on a style where you never double with less than 4-4 in the reds unless you have a lot of extras, and in a lot of those cases, you probably don't mind sitting for 1♠XX.

I do agree it's not something worth spending a lot of time on though, it comes up a half dozen times a year if you're lucky (or unlucky depending how you look at it).

[mich-b]

1NT is either :
1. A suggestion to play there with a strongish 3442, 3433 or similar
or
2. A beginning of an escape .

Hand 1 will pass if doubled in 1NT.
Hand 2 will redouble , or bid 2♣, or 2♦ if 1NT is doubled.

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Oct 30 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

1♣-p-1♠-x
XX-p-p-1NT

xx was not support but strong (could have 3 spades but not necessarily)

what is 1NT?

assuming pass of XX="this is the contract partner" then 1NT is a near game force otherwise it is a DSIP call

[gwnn]

why would you assume that and how come nobody else did?

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Nov 2 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

why would you assume that and how come nobody else did?

you got 2 answers for the price of one! WTP?

[gwnn]

TP is that I can't see what kind of hand you could possibly have. For a penalty pass on the 1 level you'd need some sort of miracle hand that passed over 1♣ but now thinks it's a good idea to try to defend a 1-level game contract opposite a partner who has not promised much defence, you could say he promised an opening hand with 4-4 in the reds, fine, but can you really think of a hand that thinks 1♠xx is the best available spot overall? I guess you can come up with something (I can't - honestly). But just how likely is that? Isn't it, in fact, more likely that you are 2-2 or 3-3 or just don't want to bid a red suit?

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Nov 2 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

TP is that I can't see what kind of hand you could possibly have. For a penalty pass on the 1 level you'd need some sort of miracle hand that passed over 1♣ but now thinks it's a good idea to try to defend a 1-level game contract opposite a partner who has not promised much defence, you could say he promised an opening hand with 4-4 in the reds, fine, but can you really think of a hand that thinks 1♠xx is the best available spot overall? I guess you can come up with something (I can't - honestly). But just how likely is that? Isn't it, in fact, more likely that you are 2-2 or 3-3 or just don't want to bid a red suit?

you'll recognize it when you see (like defining Porn )

[gwnn]

If you can't show even one hand how can you claim it's a good treatment?

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Nov 2 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

If you can't show even one hand how can you claim it's a good treatment?

mainly I use it so partner will be free to bid something after the XX without really promising a lot and like I said I really want to be able to expose the 1♠ psycher so how about

---

and please don't tell be this is a mandatory 1♠ overcall I don't want to hear it

[gwnn]

ok gl

[gwnn]

I had a 2452 16 count or something i think with Ax and Kx in their suits. so I meant it as semi-natural. my partner thought I was promising 19-20 balanced. I guess we were both way off.

[mike777]

gwnn, on Oct 30 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

1♣-p-1♠-x
XX-p-p-1NT

xx was not support but strong (could have 3 spades but not necessarily)

what is 1NT?

As a nonexpert just to back up what the heck does x over one spade and pass over xx show? Those answers would help me understand 1nt.


As a nonexpert I take x of one spade to show 4h, short spades, and opening hand or rarely, some very strong one suited hand.

I take pass over xx just to show no preference of nonspade/1nt options.

[gwnn]

x showed 4 hearts and 4 diamonds, unless there is some huge 1 suited hand (or balanced).

pass showed an uncertainty, could be 3-3 or 4-4. there is some negative inference from the failure to bid 1NT and 2♣ (both should be natural)