[kfay]

Scoring: IMP

(P)-1♣-(1♠)-2♥
(2♠)-3♦-(3♠)-4♠
(P)-5♠-(P)-6♣
(P)-7♦-All Pass

---

In your opinion what is:

4♠?
5♠?
6♣?

How do you show a good heart hand after 3♠? Thinking about it it seems that 4♠ is supposed to be this hand.

Anyway. Thoughts?

[jdonn]

I believe 4♠ agrees diamonds so on that basis I blame north. 4♣ instead must be forcing so that is a much simpler alternative.

[Zelandakh]

Turn the ♣Q into the ♥Q - what do you bid now?

[Jlall]

Ok lets go over this.

1) 3D, you didn't ask about this bid, but it is a bad bid imo. South should just double.

2) 4S. Every time I think about this situation I come to the conclusion that 4S should be a strong 1 suiter in hearts (too good for 4H). Else 4C or 4D should be bid. It's the only hand that has no bid.

On the other hand that's an infrequent hand type, maybe it's just better to play 4S shows a control and coming in either a specific minor or both of the minors. Sometimes if you don't bid 4S you never get to send the message I have short spades and a slam try in your minor. If it is going to show support for 1 minor, it should be for the highest ranking minor since that is the time you're most likely not to be able to cuebid spades. For instance if you bid 4D always with diamonds, and partner can't bid 4H you won't be able to get your 4S bid in. So if you're going to play 4S= 1 minor I would say diamonds is the obvious choice.

Playing 4S as coming in either minor sucks, how can opener evaluate if he doesn't even know what trumps are. Ambiguous trump suit slam auctions happen, but that's out of necessity not desire.

So the question is, should 4S be coming in diamonds or in hearts? The advantage of coming in diamonds is that it's way more frequent, the advantage of coming in hearts is that there is no other way to show that hand really. Most people seem to automatically assume it's coming in diamonds so I guess that's some evidence that that's a superior way to play.

The other question is should 4S always be shortness, or can it be the ace? I think it could also be the ace, but usually it's obvious from openers hand if partner has shortness or the ace anyways (based on his own length).

3) After that 5S is pretty terrible if you think 4S was coming in diamonds with shortness, just bid 4N for crying out loud! And if you want to cuebid for some reason (again, why?) then bid 5H. The only thing I can think of is south wasn't sure if north was coming in hearts or diamonds so he opted for 5S to see what was going on. But 5S denies the HA so wtf.

People make bridge too hard by not bidding keycard when all they want to know about are things like the CA, the DK, and if you have both of those the HK. That is what KC was invented for.

North who thought he was coming in either minor and thought partner denied the HA tried to sign off in 6C.

At this point south thought north was coming in diamonds and bid 7D. He probably should have figured out that north would never cuebid the CA on this auction when he has denied the HA, and 6C is probably trying to play there.

So 5S was really the worst bridge bid, it's just bad, but 4S was the cause of the problem because south thought it agreed diamonds, north thought it was suit ambiguous.

[Cascade]

3♦ set a game force therefore:

4♣ and 4♦ are natural and forcing

4♠ is a strong bid in hearts - otherwise we would need to bid 5♥ to show this hand or more if we cannot risk a PASS of 5♥.

In that context 5♠ should be a good hand for hearts - since 5♣ (and maybe 5♦) might be hands that hate hearts

6♣ is a Grand Slam try.

[kfay]

Cascade, on Oct 15 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

3♦ set a game force therefore:

4♣ and 4♦ are natural and forcing

4♠ is a strong bid in hearts - otherwise we would need to bid 5♥ to show this hand or more if we cannot risk a PASS of 5♥.

In that context 5♠ should be a good hand for hearts - since 5♣ (and maybe 5♦) might be hands that hate hearts

6♣ is a Grand Slam try.

Yeah my conclusion was basically this.

Although I agree with Justin that South should double rather than bid 3♦.

[kenrexford]

After having read through Justin's analysis, which reminds me of things I have written many times that make people's heads explode, I come to one conclusion, yet again.

Perhaps the most important slam bidding tool available is to play "Oh ***** 5NT." A 5NT call in a muddled auction should be agreed as saying, "Partner, I have no clue what is going on here, what your bids mean, what my bids mean, or what anything after this will mean. You place the contract. Whatever you bid, I will pass. If you pass, that's fine with me."

[Cascade]

Justin raised a frequency issue. I did some approximate numbers.

After partner has reversed in diamonds after opening clubs and we have shown five or more hearts and the opponents have bid and raised spades our frequency for 6+ hearts, 4+ diamonds, 3+ clubs are approximately:

Hearts 6+ 0.447
Diamonds 4+ 0.331
Clubs 3+ 0.518

Here are the complete frequency tables from 1000 hands

Hearts
5 553
6 334
7 92
8 17
9 4
10 0
11 0
12 0
13 0

Diamonds
0 8
1 61
2 265
3 335
4 236
5 85
6 8
7 2
8 0
9 0

Clubs
0 26
1 129
2 327
3 324
4 164
5 30
6 0
7 0
8 0

[Jlall]

Are those numbers supposed to have any meaning with regards to the question I raised?

[Cascade]

Which question?

They were supposed to have meaning regarding your comment that hearts was an infrequent hand type.

[jdonn]

Actually 4♠ showing hearts surely makes the most bridge sense, but it would seem to be the default agreement that such cuebids are for the last suit bid. This auction is a bit unusual in that you can make a forcing raise in that suit but not in another particular suit.

[Jlall]

Cascade, on Oct 15 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

Which question?

They were supposed to have meaning regarding your comment that hearts was an infrequent hand type.

You answered how often you have 6+ hearts vs 4+ diamonds. That is only very vaguely related to the frequency issue I brought up at best.

[Cascade]

"Every time I think about this situation I come to the conclusion that 4S should be a strong 1 suiter in hearts (too good for 4H). ... It's the only hand that has no bid.

On the other hand that's an infrequent hand type"

I thought I gave you the numbers for a strong hand with six hearts (not strictly one-suited) compared with the numbers for a similar strength hand with primary diamond support or with secondary club support.

If you meant something else then I must have misinterpreted your comment above.

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Oct 15 2009, 08:51 PM, said:

"Every time I think about this situation I come to the conclusion that 4S should be a strong 1 suiter in hearts (too good for 4H). ... It's the only hand that has no bid.

On the other hand that's an infrequent hand type"

I thought I gave you the numbers for a strong hand with six hearts (not strictly one-suited) compared with the numbers for a similar strength hand with primary diamond support or with secondary club support.

If you meant something else then I must have misinterpreted your comment above.

Generally, any old 6-card heart suit is not deemed contextually a one-suiter in hearts. A self-playing heart suit is probably closer to what Justin meant. THAT is less common.

[Jlall]

kenrexford, on Oct 15 2009, 09:57 PM, said:

Cascade, on Oct 15 2009, 08:51 PM, said:

"Every time I think about this situation I come to the conclusion that 4S should be a strong 1 suiter in hearts (too good for 4H). ... It's the only hand that has no bid.

On the other hand that's an infrequent hand type"

I thought I gave you the numbers for a strong hand with six hearts (not strictly one-suited) compared with the numbers for a similar strength hand with primary diamond support or with secondary club support.

If you meant something else then I must have misinterpreted your comment above.

Generally, any old 6-card heart suit is not deemed contextually a one-suiter in hearts. A self-playing heart suit is probably closer to what Justin meant. THAT is less common.

Obviously, plus the fact that you need far less to have a slam try in diamonds on this auction. For starters it is a below game slam try whereas 4S as a slam try is an above game slam try. Going past game is always a much stronger statement. Not to mention that it is easier to have less points and more distributional points when you are supporting partner. A stiff spade + 4 diamonds is great opposite a partner who has diamonds. A stiff spade and 6 hearts has less value when hearts are trumps.

If you want your simulation numbers to have relevance to my question of frequency you need to also know how often hands with 6+ hearts are worth a 4S "too strong for 4H bid" and how often hands with 4+ diamonds are worth a 4S slam try in diamonds. Obviously the former is far far less frequent which is the whole point, I did not think you were more likely to have 4 diamonds than 6 hearts on this auction.

[A2003]

This is the way, I consider the bidding.

4♠ = Singleton or void or A♠ and trick potential suit in ♥ and support to one minor suit.

5♠ = If you have singleton then, I have A♠ or void, Promises A♥, and one more Ace in minor. committed to slam.

6♣ = ♣ support, slam pick To Play. since minor suit was not supported earlier, setting the trump.

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Oct 16 2009, 04:17 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 15 2009, 09:57 PM, said:

Cascade, on Oct 15 2009, 08:51 PM, said:

"Every time I think about this situation I come to the conclusion that 4S should be a strong 1 suiter in hearts (too good for 4H). ... It's the only hand that has no bid.

On the other hand that's an infrequent hand type"

I thought I gave you the numbers for a strong hand with six hearts (not strictly one-suited) compared with the numbers for a similar strength hand with primary diamond support or with secondary club support.

If you meant something else then I must have misinterpreted your comment above.

Generally, any old 6-card heart suit is not deemed contextually a one-suiter in hearts. A self-playing heart suit is probably closer to what Justin meant. THAT is less common.

Obviously, plus the fact that you need far less to have a slam try in diamonds on this auction. For starters it is a below game slam try whereas 4S as a slam try is an above game slam try. Going past game is always a much stronger statement. Not to mention that it is easier to have less points and more distributional points when you are supporting partner. A stiff spade + 4 diamonds is great opposite a partner who has diamonds. A stiff spade and 6 hearts has less value when hearts are trumps.

If you want your simulation numbers to have relevance to my question of frequency you need to also know how often hands with 6+ hearts are worth a 4S "too strong for 4H bid" and how often hands with 4+ diamonds are worth a 4S slam try in diamonds. Obviously the former is far far less frequent which is the whole point, I did not think you were more likely to have 4 diamonds than 6 hearts on this auction.

I did not dispute anything that you said here.

I merely provided some numbers from which one could judge the relative frequencies of some sorts of hands on this sort of auction.

I did not make any comments on the numbers nor on your claim about the frequency.

[Trinidad]

Call me simple, but if I would want to show a big heart hand, I would just pass instead of bidding 4♠.

Effectively, the way some people would like to play 4♠ is "Do something intelligent partner". I would rather give partner the room to do something intelligent after 3♠, then take al his bidding room away with a bid of 4♠, which should have a very specific meaning. I think that many pairs would "autoagree" that 4♠ is a splinter for diamonds (making it correctable to clubs would only confuse the matter). Then don't use the bid for showing a heart hand, certainly not if you can just make a forcing pass to explore your potential for a fit.

With this North hand, at IMPs, I would aim for a club slam. Therefore, I would set trumps with 4♣.

Rik

[straube]

I'm in the Ed Mansfield school which defines a bid of the enemy suit (when two or three other suits are possible places to play) as a request for help locating this strain.

4S would appear to ask for help. Of course, 4S is a bit odd considering that a forcing pass was available, but perhaps responder wanted to show values before the opponents bid 4S...perhaps responder had slam ambitions...perhaps he forgot that pass was forcing. It still fits the definition of a COG tool.

What should opener have rebid after 4S? I like 5S. 5S announces that opener is also uncertain as to strain but wants to be in slam. After all, opener has only really promised 15 points or so and he has a prime 17. His hand probably evaluates to a 19 count.

If he wanted to be more conservative, then he could choose between 4N and 5D.
4N is truthful, but I would bid 5D confirming that 1) I actually have four diamonds and didn't manufacture a diamond bid and 2) I have tolerance for hearts

As to why 4S should not just hearts...I would argue that there isn't much point for that. If responder has a self-sufficient suit, why not bid 5H (invitational) or 6H?
If responder does have hearts but they aren't self-sufficient then he has to be uncertain about strain...thus the COG cue bid.

As to why 4S should not show diamond support and a spade control. Why reserve this bid for opener's second best (and possibly improvised) suit? Why not reserve it for opener's best suit?

I think Mansfield was right. Don't be trying to show control over the enemy's suit before you've agreed on a suit.

Responder's 4S bid was truly awful. Especially imps, just give up on hearts. You have AQJ of partner's primary suit and you have to be thinking about a grand. For a grand to be safe in hearts, partner would have to have specifically the AQ doubleton of hearts.

[mike777]

kfay, on Oct 15 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

(P)-1♣-(1♠)-2♥
(2♠)-3♦-(3♠)-4♠
(P)-5♠-(P)-6♣
(P)-7♦-All Pass

---

In your opinion what is:

4♠?
5♠?
6♣?

How do you show a good heart hand after 3♠?  Thinking about it it seems that 4♠ is supposed to be this hand.

Anyway.  Thoughts?

Very tough hand. I play mexican 2d here but....


In any event tough hand.


1) I prefer to start off with 1nt(16-18) if no toys.
2) If no 16-18 nt then prefer to start off with 1d, bidding my strongest minor.
3) If your style forces 1c opening then I really hate ....4s.bid.