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Why capitalism fails by Hyman Minsky

#21 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:09

mike777, on Sep 25 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

To be fair the FDIC banks were in fact bailed out.
The reason given seems to be...we had 24-48 hours to make a decision and that is what we decided/guess was best.

The issue remains was there a better way?


For sake of discussion lets say there was not at that point........

Then the question becomes, why not?


Another question is should we just let non banks, Bear Stearns, FNMA, AIG, etc go bankrupt at that point?

Which FDIC-insured commercial banks were bailed out, Mike? I was not aware of any.
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#22 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:10

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

barmar, on Sep 25 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Sep 24 2009, 07:23 PM, said:

The banks that had to be bailed out were NOT the FDIC deposit-taking commercial banks normally thought of.
...
All these bailout did was save the bondholders the loss from risk that they knew they were taking when they bought the bonds in the first place.

Your first statement is certainly true, but the last is simplistic. Where do you think the commercial banks get their money from? If the I-banks were allowed to fail, there would have been a domino effect.

Or am I naively buying the conventional explanation for the bailout?

The commercial banks do not get their money from the investment banks. In fact, it is the commercial bank that has access to the Fed "Discount Window" and not the Investment Banks. (At least this was the case before the "crisis".)

The systemic risk was that money market funds would "break the buck" - lose money because they had invested heavily in MBS (mortgage backed securities) and the insane Invest Banks like Bear Stearns had leveraged up to 30:1 in the same products.

If the Investment banks were allowed to fail, they would have had to sell off the MBS due to margin calls and at fire sale prices, meaning everyone who owned MBS would have to value their MBS marked-to-market, or at the fire sale price - this would have had a domino effect - and the funds worldwide who held MBS would have been crippled, causing more panic selling snowballing the problem even more.

There is a very real reason why Bill Gross of PIMCO was out pounding the financial talk shows for bailout upon bailout - his company was hugely invested in Fannie Mae MBS and he needed the bailouts to protect his bond investments - he was simply talking his book.

Winston brings up the arcane but important issue of which securities should be marked to market and which should not.....very complicated issue having read the debate for years and even more so now.
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#23 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:13

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:09 PM, said:

mike777, on Sep 25 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

To be fair the FDIC banks were in fact bailed out.
The reason given seems to be...we had 24-48 hours to make a decision and that is what we decided/guess was best.

The issue remains was there a better way?


For sake of discussion lets say there was not at that point........

Then the question becomes, why not?


Another question is should we just let non banks, Bear Stearns, FNMA, AIG, etc go bankrupt at that point?

Which FDIC-insured commercial banks were bailed out, Mike? I was not aware of any.

there are many, citi, bank america, wells fargo , BBT, JP Morgan. etc etc etc
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#24 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:14

Of course, all the FDIC talk is off-point. The point of Minsky is his theory that stability is the cause of final instability in a capitalistic system - it is the thought that risk has been conquered that leads to greater and greater risk until instability collapses the entire system.

Seem it occurs about every 80 years, if the current collapse is included with the 1929 collapse.

The comparisons between 1929 and present day is astounding, btw. http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articl...n_1929_and_2007
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#25 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:16

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Of course, all the FDIC talk is off-point. The point of Minsky is his theory that stability is the cause of final instability in a capitalistic system - it is the thought that risk has been conquered that leads to greater and greater risk until instability collapses the entire system.

Seem it occurs about every 80 years, if the current collapse is included with the 1929 collapse.

The comparisons between 1929 and present day is astounding, btw.

Many not realize Citi Bank has been "saved" by the Fed at least 3 times in the last 30 years.....
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#26 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:18

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Of course, all the FDIC talk is off-point.  The point of Minsky is his theory that stability is the cause of final instability in a capitalistic system - it is the thought that risk has been conquered that leads to greater and greater risk until instability collapses the entire system.

Seem it occurs about every 80 years, if the current collapse is included with the 1929 collapse.

The comparisons between 1929 and present day is astounding, btw.  http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articl...n_1929_and_2007

I am not quite sure what the heck Minsky is saying......that there is instability, of course there is so?

Is he saying there is risk in the system, of course there is so?

If he is arguing for more transparencey, who is against that?
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#27 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:19

Btw,

Mike is the true "expert" on banking and my knowledge is only based on limited study of finances.
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#28 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:25

mike777, on Sep 25 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Of course, all the FDIC talk is off-point.  The point of Minsky is his theory that stability is the cause of final instability in a capitalistic system - it is the thought that risk has been conquered that leads to greater and greater risk until instability collapses the entire system.

Seem it occurs about every 80 years, if the current collapse is included with the 1929 collapse.

The comparisons between 1929 and present day is astounding, btw.  http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articl...n_1929_and_2007

I am not quite sure what the heck Minsky is saying......that there is instability, of course there is so?

Is he saying there is risk in the system, of course there is so?

Mike,

I would be shocked if you were not aware of what Hyman Minsky wrote. But for others who may not know, his premise was that stability itself was what led to greater and greater risk taking behaviors - the very stability of the system is what leads to its eventual instability.

In this current crisis, I am sure Minsky would have pointed out the banks increasing leverage from 12:1 to 20 or even 30:1, of covenant lite loans, of 100% LTV mortgages, etc., as examples of the increased risk taking behavior.
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#29 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-September-25, 20:41

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

mike777, on Sep 25 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Sep 25 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Of course, all the FDIC talk is off-point.  The point of Minsky is his theory that stability is the cause of final instability in a capitalistic system - it is the thought that risk has been conquered that leads to greater and greater risk until instability collapses the entire system.

Seem it occurs about every 80 years, if the current collapse is included with the 1929 collapse.

The comparisons between 1929 and present day is astounding, btw.  http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articl...n_1929_and_2007

I am not quite sure what the heck Minsky is saying......that there is instability, of course there is so?

Is he saying there is risk in the system, of course there is so?

Mike,

I would be shocked if you were not aware of what Hyman Minsky wrote. But for others who may not know, his premise was that stability itself was what led to greater and greater risk taking behaviors - the very stability of the system is what leads to its eventual instability.

In this current crisis, I am sure Minsky would have pointed out the banks increasing leverage from 12:1 to 20 or even 30:1, of covenant lite loans, of 100% LTV mortgages, etc., as examples of the increased risk taking behavior.

I dont get this......


This suggests that the investment banks were never stable.......so what is this "stable system"

In fact since he studied under "The economic concept of creative destruction was first introduced by the Austrian School economist Joseph Schumpeter.

In Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy, Schumpeter popularized and used the term to describe the process of transformation that accompanies radical innovation.[1] In Schumpeter's vision of capitalism, innovative entry by entrepreneurs was the force that sustained long-term economic growth,"

However if your point is private companies take increased risk given central government intervention in the markets (see fNMA) I agree. If banks take more risk given access to FDIC (cheap under market loans) I agree.
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#30 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 00:14

When I was very very young I was hired by Merrill Lynch....

The first week on the job...we all got a huge message saying....M/L would not go bankrupt........this was all about the Hunt silver fiasco.........on week one I found out....this was not a stable business.........


This was coming from the oil business where the government controlled oil.......and I worked about 5 hours a week out of 40 since they made the business silly easy....


This was out of my computer job in college where i worked about 4 hours out of 40 since no one understood what I was doing or how long it really took...;)
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#31 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 08:27

I think the meaning of an analysis is often found in the action taken or recommended. The observation, that long periods of relative stability even with the occasional craziness sparked by such things as the Hunt's attempt at cornering silver will likely lead to underappreciation of risk, seems to me to be pretty obvious. A guy is not getting a Nobel prize for noticing this. The conclusions drawn from this observation are what matter.

Here is a Longish) quote from the article:



Quote

To prevent the Minsky moment from becoming a national calamity, part of his solution (which was shared with other economists) was to have the Federal Reserve - what he liked to call the “Big Bank” - step into the breach and act as a lender of last resort to firms under siege. By throwing lines of liquidity to foundering firms, the Federal Reserve could break the cycle and stabilize the financial system. It failed to do so during the Great Depression, when it stood by and let a banking crisis spiral out of control. This time, under the leadership of Ben Bernanke - like Minsky, a scholar of the Depression - it took a very different approach, becoming a lender of last resort to everything from hedge funds to investment banks to money market funds.

Minsky’s other solution, however, was considerably more radical and less palatable politically. The preferred mainstream tactic for pulling the economy out of a crisis was - and is - based on the Keynesian notion of “priming the pump” by sending money that will employ lots of high-skilled, unionized labor - by building a new high-speed train line, for example.

Minsky, however, argued for a “bubble-up” approach, sending money to the poor and unskilled first. The government - or what he liked to call “Big Government” - should become the “employer of last resort,” he said, offering a job to anyone who wanted one at a set minimum wage. It would be paid to workers who would supply child care, clean streets, and provide services that would give taxpayers a visible return on their dollars. In being available to everyone, it would be even more ambitious than the New Deal, sharply reducing the welfare rolls by guaranteeing a job for anyone who was able to work. Such a program would not only help the poor and unskilled, he believed, but would put a floor beneath everyone else’s wages too, preventing salaries of more skilled workers from falling too precipitously, and sending benefits up the socioeconomic ladder.

While economists may be acknowledging some of Minsky’s points on financial instability, it’s safe to say that even liberal policymakers are still a long way from thinking about such an expanded role for the American government. If nothing else, an expensive full-employment program would veer far too close to socialism for the comfort of politicians. For his part, Wray thinks that the critics are apt to misunderstand Minsky. “He saw these ideas as perfectly consistent with capitalism,” says Wray. “They would make capitalism better.”

But not perfect. Indeed, if there’s anything to be drawn from Minsky’s collected work, it’s that perfection, like stability and equilibrium, are mirages. Minsky did not share his profession’s quaint belief that everything could be reduced to a tidy model, or a pat theory. His was a kind of existential economics: capitalism, like life itself, is difficult, even tragic. “There is no simple answer to the problems of our capitalism,” wrote Minsky. “There is no solution that can be transformed into a catchy phrase and carried on banners.”


So the article gives two recommended changes from past practice, the first of which seems to be about what the fed actually did. But the article is a brief summary of his theories, and a full reading would no doubt be challenging.


One point that occurs to me: It has been observed by many that part of the problem was that many of the "risk takers" were actually creating far more risk for others than for themselves. No doubt there should be some correction applied. But Minsky's observation warns that this may not suffice. Having to risk substantial amounts of their own money will slow the action a bit, but the urge may still be irresistible after a long period during which caution seems old fashioned and unnecessary.


Btw: "Why Capitalism Fails" is a somewhat overstated headline.
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#32 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 08:45

kenberg, on Sep 26 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

Btw: "Why Capitalism Fails" is a somewhat overstated headline.

Yeah. We have had one year of negative growth and are now back at the same GDB level as in 2006. Or some such. Big deal.
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#33 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 10:43

Actually, I don't know how anyone knows which banks were bailed out when Bloomberg had to file a lawsuit to try to force this information from the Fed and the Fed responded to the lawsuit by telling Bloomberg that they and their lawsuit could go F#*) themselves.
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#34 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 10:54

Quote

Btw: "Why Capitalism Fails" is a somewhat overstated headline


I don't know - I think it is about how you read it (grasp its meaning). I understand it to mean "Why Capitalism Fails (to be the perfect system).

I don't take it to mean capitalism fails as in collapses or that any other system is better - although the Libertarians accuse Keynesianism of being closeted socialism.


Personally, I don't think it is. My understanding is the Keynes principles would certainly use government policy to redistribute wealth temporarily, the key to socialism is government control of production, not simply redistribution of wealth.

If redistribution of wealth equated to socialism, then the Reagan and Bush tax cuts have to be viewed as socialistic.
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#35 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 11:07

Winstonm, on Sep 26 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

[....] Libertarians accuse Keynesianism of being closeted socialism.

Personally, I don't think it is.  My understanding is the Keynes principles would certainly use government policy to redistribute wealth temporarily, the key to socialism is government control of production, not simply redistribution of wealth.

Keynesianism is the belief that fiscal policies are efficient in regulating growth while monetary policies are inefficient. A Keynesian would respond to an overheated economy by raising taxes and/or cut spendings, and to a recession by reducing taxes and/or increase spendings.

This has nothing to do with the income redistribution, and not even with the size of the public sector. It is about the balance of the govt't budget.

Of course an extreme libertarian who doesn't want a government budget at all cannot favor a Keynesian policy as an instrument in his ideal society. But he could still believe it to be efficient in terms of regulating growth, and he would favor a Keynesian policy of reduction of spendings or reductions of taxes. And if he doesn't believe in a single central bank with the power to influence interest rates, he cannot believe in monetarism as a political doctrine either.
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#36 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 11:25

helene_t, on Sep 26 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Sep 26 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

[....] Libertarians accuse Keynesianism of being closeted socialism.

Personally, I don't think it is.  My understanding is the Keynes principles would certainly use government policy to redistribute wealth temporarily, the key to socialism is government control of production, not simply redistribution of wealth.

Keynesianism is the belief that fiscal policies are efficient in regulating growth while monetary policies are inefficient. A Keynesian would respond to an overheated economy by raising taxes and/or cut spendings, and to a recession by reducing taxes and/or increase spendings.

This has nothing to do with the income redistribution, and not even with the size of the public sector. It is about the balance of the govt't budget.

Of course an extreme libertarian who doesn't want a government budget at all cannot favor or Keynesian policy as an instrument in his ideal society. But he could still believe it to be efficient in terms of regulating growth, and he would favor a Keynesian policy of reduction of spendings or reductions of taxes. And if he doesn't believe in a single central bank with the power to influence interest rates, he cannot believe in monetarism as a political doctrine either.

Agreed. Unfortunately, the U.S. doesn't believe in the raising taxes and reduction of spending part of Keynes ideas.

However, IMO raising taxes for government decisions on spending is a redistribution of wealth - just as is reductions in high-income taxes being paid for by reduction in benefits in Social Security. (A Greenspan advocated ploy)

Redistribution of wealth is a policy decision.
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#37 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2009-September-27, 22:18

mike777, on Sep 25 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

This suggests that the investment banks were never stable.......so what is this "stable system"

That's the crux of the paradox.

The point is that it isn't really a stable system, but it goes so long without any severe problems that it seems stable. And that sense of invulnerability is what leads to excessive risk taking, which creates a bubble, and when the bubble bursts you discover that the system wasn't really as stable as the conventional wisdom implied.

This is a normal psychological behavior. For instance, I've never gotten the flu, so I don't bother getting flu shots. A big difference is that many economists assumed that businesses and economies were not subject to the same irrational behaviors as individuals.

#38 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2009-September-28, 09:38

fyi, Dennis Leyden's links to Paul Krugman's June 2009 Robbins Memorial Lectures at the London School of Economics.

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#39 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-September-28, 10:00

barmar, on Sep 28 2009, 05:18 AM, said:

The point is that it isn't really a stable system, but it goes so long without any severe problems that it seems stable. And that sense of invulnerability is what leads to excessive risk taking, which creates a bubble, and when the bubble bursts you discover that the system wasn't really as stable as the conventional wisdom implied.

This is a normal psychological behavior. For instance, I've never gotten the flu, so I don't bother getting flu shots. A big difference is that many economists assumed that businesses and economies were not subject to the same irrational behaviors as individuals.

Maybe I am wrong but I doubt politicians, regulators and academics are better at judging the stability of the "system" than traders are.

I once found out that the managers of a hedge fund I invested in got a bonus for large short-term wins but suffered no penalty for large losses. In other words, if they start with a portfolio worth one billion, let it grow to 2 billions the first year and shrink back to 1 billion the second year, they would be awarded. While if they just stay put through the two years they would not. Since then I haven't put money in hedge funds. If I were to invest again in something other than savings accounts and my own house, I would buy shares in real companies.
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#40 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-September-28, 10:38

i see, following the links, that many LSE lectures can be downloaded. Good grief, I might actually have to learn something. Just having opinions is so much easier.
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