[slothy]

Hi all,

I started playing Multi a few years back, and combining it with Lucas/ Muiderberg/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I found it an indispensible part of my bidding set that i very rarely play any other conflicting conventions, having a weak-orientated, aggressive style (in competition and openings, with a 'get-your-hand-off-your- chest' approach) and the fact that cumbersome hard-to-bid weak hands come up more often than cumbersome hard-to-bid strong hands.

However, one night about 7 months ago, playing in an important team match (which we lost coz of following 4 boards ) , we got 3 bad scores, and lost a potential slam swing, on the trot on hands that involved Multi-openings!!!

In 2 of the cases, both involving the weak major follow-up, the hand was wrong- sided and the lead came through tenace holding of the strong hand. In the other 2, involving slam bidding, we missed a slam and on the other, more out of ill-fated frustration than good bidding , my p bid a slam hoping for a particular distribution (would have made had I a single ♣ rather than a single ♦).

We were playing a rather simple response, showing either the lower end or upper end of the weak 2, as i am sure many play (or inverted)...

So
2♦ - 2NT - 3♣/3♦ showed higher end of Multi for ♥ & ♠
and
2♦ - 2NT - 3♥/3♠ showed lower end of Multi.

In the first 2 cases described above, my p rightly passed a 3♥ bid and raised me to 4♠ after 3♠ on another, after i had showed the weak end. But i was declarer, with the weak hand, and the contract was doomed on the lead, the lead coming though the tenace holding in dummy which would have otherwise been protected.

So, we thought about coming up with a simple transfer and relay system to avoid this (in some cases unavoidable but more often than not right sided) - basically ensuring that the contract was right-sided. I am not sure whether there are any other similar system 'add-ons' like this in play at the moment (if there is would like to know ), but we have played it for a while now with very few hiccups, continuously modifying it, and, in a few instances, notable successes, with one bidding sequence prompting our opponent, an ex-England player, to email him the sub-system .

What i would like is for people to comment on it and see if it can be improved on or if it has any merit at all

So FYI, Multi is either weak 2 or 19-20 balanced. All sequences assume a weak Multi opening with a 2NT enquiry.

Possible auctions over 2♦ - 2NT:

3NT : strong 19-20.

With a lower end of multi, (5-7) responder is transfered directly to your suit.

3♦ = transfer to ♥
3♥ = transfer to ♠

Responder now knows the score and the suit so bids accordingly, bidding 3 as a shut out or breaks transfer to glean me. In 'normal' system i would have had to bid the suit in question and it could be/is wrong-sided (NB even if you play it the other way round ie 3♥ shows stronger end, you could be in a non-making game as it is yet again wrong-sided)

The stronger end is puppeted to 3 ♣, showing higher end of either major.

Benefit of this is that responder immediately knows you have strong end (of course doesnt know yet which suit i have ...read on)

3♣ - 3♦
3♦ is now a further enquiry asking me to show my major and i bid the one i havent got.

So

Seq 1.

3♣(1) - 3♦(2)
3♥(3)

Seq 2.
3♣(1) - 3♦(2)
3♠(4)

(1) upper end of multi (either major)
(2) whats your suit?
(3) weak 2 in ♠
(4) weak 2 in ♥

3♣ - 3♥

is either to pass or correct. He obviously has a hand where, had i got ♠ would want to be in game and is worried about ♥ and 4♥ may be too high. (if not he would bid 3♦ over 3♣).

One benefit is that the 3 ♠ over 2NT bid is now released as well. This is used to specify an unspecified singelton and good trumps (as yet unspecified!! could be ♥ or ♠).

I have to rush now [this editing took longer than i thought] but this is the rudiments of the system. The first thing people say, quite justifiably, is "well how do you know which suit partner has?". Good question . However, some times on certain auctions it is fairly obvious and we havent played in a 2-2 fit yet

The auction imentioned that got to us to a slam (bid by the way with a 100% confidence) is as follows, to give you an idea how i think it gains.


2♦ - 2NT
3♠(1) - 4♣(2)
4♥(3) - 4NT(4)
5♦(5) - 5NT(6)
6♣(7) - 7♠(8)

NOW ) this shows the following.

(1) : weak 6 card major, *EITHER* major, upper end unspecified singleton.

(2) : enquiry

(3) : singleton same color as 6 card major. (4♦ is different color singleton)

(4) : further enquiry

(5) : 6-4-2-1 (5♣= 6-3-3-1)

(6) : further enquiry (he still doesnt know my suit 5 ♥ would be to pass or correct)

(7) : black singleton (hence spades cos of (3) and as i cant have 4 ♥ he knows i am EXACTLY 6-2-4-1.

Out of 21 pairs, we ONLY pair in 7♠, 5 in 6♠ and and the other 14 in either 4 or 5 ♠.

Will follow it up later.

Alex

[Flame]

It looks nice, its use the space effectively and its does what you wanted, you will play from the strong (and unknown hand) but it may have 2 flaws, one after the 3c partner doesnt know which major you got and if opponents decide to step in it can hurt, imo this isnt a problem at all, if they didnt get in till now, there is no problem of them getting in after all the knowlege have been transfer. the second is losing one bid step when instead of bidding 3c with hearts and 3d with spade , you bid 3d with hearts and 3h with spades, this mean partner cant make another game try, this is a problem, but maybe you can and wish to live with it.

[1eyedjack]

slothy, on Jul 3 2004, 12:20 PM, said:

3♣  - 3♥

is either to pass or correct. He obviously has a hand where, had i got ♠ would want to be in game and is worried about ♥ and 4♥ may be too high. (if not he would bid 3♦ over 3♣).

This is the only passage that confuses me. Why would you not just bid 2♥ as initial response to the multi 2♦, if you have no interest in a maximum weak 2♥? When opener converts 2♥ to 2♠ to show a weak 2♠ (albeit at this point any strength) responder can then make another move to enquire into maximum. I can see that this might wrong-side a ♠ contract, but the flipside is getting to play in 2♥ rather than 3♥ opposite a weak 2♥ hand.

It would be helpful if you posted the full hands of the disasters that resulted in wrong-siding the contracts, to show that there is no lead from the other side that can damage you. This is something of a rarety in low level contracts, I find. Half the time the honours are well placed so it matters not who leads, and of the other half, a good proportion of the time a passive lead gets partner in to make the damaging lead after trick 1.

I think it is one of the fundamental weaknesses of the multi that you have to resort to the crude "min v max" split as the arbiter of a game try. Playing weak 2 openers (for example) I get to enquire about side suit shortages as well as min v max opener, and I dislike giving up that accuracy in favour of the multi.

Subject to the above I think that the method described has a lot of merit.

[luke warm]

i have to admit upfront that i don't play multi, so i need to know whether or not 2nt over 2♦ is a game force.. if it is, it seems that 3♣ can show lower end for hearts, 3♦ lower end for spades, 3♥ upper end in spades and 3♠ upper end in hearts

this way the contract should be rightsided, as long as 3♥ after 3♣ and 3♠ after 3♦ isn't passed out.. if 2nt isn't a game force, none of that matters

2♦ : 2NT
3♦ : 3♠
and now you can cuebid or treat the 3♠ as rkc or even as a stiff ask.. with
2♦ : 2NT
3♣ : 3♥
you can cue or again play it as a stiff ask or as rkc..

i suppose you could even use 2nt for invitational sequences.. say 3♣ is the response, then 3♦ could say something like "i was interested if you had the upper range, but i think 3♥ is better now".. and 2nt:3♦:3♥ can say the same for spades... true, the 2♦ opener is declarer in the invitational sequences, with all the faults you brought up

i probably left off a lot of elementary stuff, but remember i don't play it

oh, i agree with jack.. it'd be nice to see the full hands

[1eyedjack]

luke warm, on Jul 3 2004, 07:51 PM, said:

i have to admit upfront that i don't play multi, so i need to know whether or not 2nt over 2♦ is a game force.. if it is, it seems that 3♣ can show lower end for hearts, 3♦ lower end for spades, 3♥ upper end in spades and 3♠ upper end in hearts

this way the contract should be rightsided, as long as 3♥ after 3♣ and 3♠ after 3♦ isn't passed out.. if 2nt isn't a game force, none of that matters

2♦ : 2NT
3♦ : 3♠
and now you can cuebid or treat the 3♠ as rkc or even as a stiff ask.. with
2♦ : 2NT
3♣ : 3♥
you can cue or again play it as a stiff ask or as rkc..

i suppose you could even use 2nt for invitational sequences.. say 3♣ is the response, then 3♦ could say something like "i was interested if you had the upper range, but i think 3♥ is better now".. and 2nt:3♦:3♥ can say the same for spades... true, the 2♦ opener is declarer in the invitational sequences, with all the faults you brought up

i probably left off a lot of elementary stuff, but remember i don't play it

oh, i agree with jack.. it'd be nice to see the full hands

That looks good also. In fact I don't see why 2N need be GF for it to work (it is not normally GF, by the way)

[inquiry]

A second serious thread started by slothy… what is the world coming too? So it is with some sadness that I have to say that I don’t like it too much. I don’t like it for a number or reasons, let’s take the simplest and easiest to understand first.

2D-2NT-3NT where 3NT shows the big balanced hand. You are in 3NT with no attempt to check for 4-4 major fit or to see if opener has decent fit for responders major. Yuck. It is true if responder has a game invite hand opposite a weak two, this might not be that huge a problem, as you are unlikely to stop in 3NT, but sometimes responder might bid a “fakey” 2NT without real game interest.

I play 2D-2NT-3C where 3C is shows the big balanced hand. Now, 3D is “stayman” so you can look for 4-4 major fit, and 3H and 3S by responder are natural.

So if you “waste” the 3C bid to show the big balanced hand, how do you address the weak versus the strong weak two in a major opening suit. The answer is to use two way bids.

2D-2NT-3D, where 3D is either a weak 2H opening bid or a strong 2S opening bid (within the context of a “weak” two opener).

2D-2NT-3H = strong heart suit
2D-2NT-3S = weak two spade opener

Or some permutation of these.

Keep up the good work Slothy… good to see bridge from you for a change. :-)

Ben

[Flame]

luke suggested "3♥ upper end in spades" , i think 3♥ should stay premptive to the 3 level in heart and atleast 3 level in spade.
About the sequence 2d-2nt-3nt showing strong NT, i see no problem with that since its rare, and there is no problem checking for 4-4 major fit with 4c, the partnership is almost in a slam force situation so stoping at 4nt wont kill us.

"but sometimes responder might bid a “fakey” 2NT without real game interest. " if this is a problem then partner shouldnt do that.

[Free]

I'm also used to play multi-muiderberg, and followups after 2♦-2NT for me are:

3♣ = min or medium with ♥
3♦ = min or medium with ♠
3M = max, 6 card OM
3NT = solid suit (AKQxxx)

after 3m, step 1 asks more info, and opener bids his Major when minimum, or bids his stiff when medium (or NT with 6322).
after 3♥, 3♠ asks also for more info, and opener bids his shortness.
after 3NT, 4♣ asks to trf the Major.

after 3♠ however, we don't have the possibility to ask more info about the shape, since opener can't rebid 3NT or shortness in ♠.

This rightsides the contract more often than the standard way, because we make it 3-range, and only with the absolute minimum opener has to play. When 2NT bidder isn't interested in game after a 3m response, he can just bid the Major, or if he doesn't see slam he can just bid 4M ofcourse

[luke warm]

Free, on Jul 4 2004, 11:59 AM, said:

~~snip~~
after 3♠ however, we don't have the possibility to ask more info about the shape, since opener can't rebid 3NT or shortness in ♠.
~~snip~~

i'm not sure i understand this.. why not have 3nt show shortness in spades?

Quote

from flame:
luke suggested "3♥ upper end in spades" , i think 3♥ should stay premptive to the 3 level in heart and atleast 3 level in spade.
About the sequence 2d-2nt-3nt showing strong NT, i see no problem with that since its rare, and there is no problem checking for 4-4 major fit with 4c, the partnership is almost in a slam force situation so stoping at 4nt wont kill us.

in my post, if 2nt asked min/max then 3♣ showed the hand you're talking about, eh? min in hearts.. now 3♥ from responder says "i don't care, i want to bid game... show me your shortness" and 3♦ says "oh well, sign off in 3♥"

Quote

from 1eyedjack
That looks good also. In fact I don't see why 2N need be GF for it to work (it is not normally GF, by the way)

right, it only becomes a gf when responder bids the actual suit, and that bid can start some sort of sequence.. cues, shortness ask, rkc, whatever

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Jul 4 2004, 03:55 AM, said:

2D-2NT-3NT  where 3NT shows the big balanced hand. You are in 3NT with no attempt to check for 4-4 major fit or to see if opener has decent fit for responders major.  Yuck.  It is true if responder has a game invite hand opposite a weak two, this might not be that huge a problem, as you are unlikely to stop in 3NT, but sometimes responder might bid a “fakey” 2NT without real game interest.

I play 2D-2NT-3C where 3C is shows the big balanced hand. Now, 3D is “stayman” so you can look for 4-4 major fit, and 3H and 3S by responder are natural.

i'm not sure of the percentages when the 2♦ opener has 6M *and* 4M, but i guess it's large enough for this to be a problem, at least in ben's mind... to me it probably wouldn't be, i'd more likely be interested in 4 of opener's major or 3nt (if not slam somewhere)

as for the big balanced hand, what are we trying to do? find the best game or look for slam? seems to me that after 3nt responder can do a number of things.. cue controls (or deny controls if the 2♦ bid promised one of the top 2 honors [yeah i'm stuck on those encrypted bids heheh]), bid 4nt with a solid suit, bid 4M without.. 'course a lot depends on how strong 'big balanced' is

Quote

2D-2NT-3H = strong heart suit
2D-2NT-3S = weak two spade opener

one of the things alex was doing was trying to keep the weak bidder from declaring.. i guess you can't have everything, tho

[Trpltrbl]

I used to play multi, now everybody does, so it loses it's effect. And on top of that, it is mostly prohibited by the ACBL except for few events a year and even then there are limitations, especially with opps sitting there allowed to look in notes how to defend against it. What's the whole point. Seems to make it easier for opps.
But no matter what system you play, there are always situations where you wrongside a contract. It just happens.

Mike

[mishovnbg]

std BG method:
2♦-2NT, ?
3♣: max ->3♦ relay -> inverted majors
3♦: min, ♥
3♥: min, ♠
3♠: strong variant unbalanced
3NT: strong variant balanced (if doesnt exist, the any major AKQxxx)
Misho

[helene_t]

In the Netherlands, Luke/Free's method is standard according to the latest Biedermeijer and HIB polls.

Actually, one of the few advantages of multi is that you get the contract right-sided. The list of disadvantes of the convention is endless. Of course, if you don't play it, it is nice to know in what situations partner may preempt on a 5-card.

[Free]

luke warm, on Jul 4 2004, 03:45 PM, said:

Free, on Jul 4 2004, 11:59 AM, said:

~~snip~~
after 3♠ however, we don't have the possibility to ask more info about the shape, since opener can't rebid 3NT or shortness in ♠.
~~snip~~

i'm not sure i understand this.. why not have 3nt show shortness in spades?

Because, my friend, opener bid 3♠, and the lowest possible rebid (relay) from responder is 3NT, then opener has to show shortness with 4m or 4♥... 4♠ is too high since he has ♥s.