[Infidel]

Just looking for some opinions; I realize this is a shy and reluctant group, but thought I'd see if a few might express an opinion...

2/1, strongish NT (15-16, if interested)...

When 1NT is overcalled, I wonder if it is EVER (or often enough to be considered) a good score to let the opponents play in 2x? I am messing with an already-messed-with Lebensohl, trying to transfer at a lower level by incorporating the much-maligned shadow double. To avoid giving up the penalty double, the current plan is to use a forcing pass over 2-level interference: It forces opener to double, after which responder will pass with a penalty double, or take out to show certain specific 2-suiters.

This does mean I have to take some other sort of action with a 4333 2-pointer, but I am telling myself that, with THAT hand, we're not winning the auction anyway, and that it will be difficult for opps to stop off for a penalty when they haven't finished looking for a fit (especially when the 2x bid was some artificial thingie).

Anyhow, the gist of the question is whether the "resistance is mandatory" idea is sound: Do you ever get a good score by giving up meekly when the opps overcall a strong 1NT? And if so, how often does it happen?

Many thanks

[quiddity]

IMO, it is not a rare occurrence. Opponents will strive to bid over the NT and they will occasionally be wrong, taking you out of a doomed 1NT when they have no 8-card fit. If you are forced to bid on with your 4333 2-count, the opponents may not have to double you to get a good score. Occasionally they will double you, and you'll be slaughtered. And occasionally you'll feel pressured to pass out a close double of their 2M contract with your balanced 5-count and they'll make it.

[benlessard]

Forcing pass after a 1NT = simply unplayable.

[awm]

Good scores are relative. There are a lot of hands where the opponents making something at the two-level is a normal result. It's not spectacularly good nor spectacularly bad. If it's MP it may depend on whether they reached their best fit and how well we defend and they declare.

The issue is that automatically bidding over their overcall often turns a normal (perhaps average minus) result into a huge disaster. This will be true almost every time responder is balanced and weak (for example).

[MFA]

Of course we get good scores. Just because they have bid to the 2-level there is no reason to assume that their contract is the optimum for them. They have taken a stab, nothing more.
And the card play hasn't even started yet.

To me it sounds like panic.

[the hog]

MFA, on Sep 14 2009, 03:47 PM, said:

Of course we get good scores. Just because they have bid to the 2-level there is no reason to assume that their contract is the optimum for them. They have taken a stab, nothing more.
And the card play hasn't even started yet.

To me it sounds like panic.

Panic is a good phrase. Agree with that.

[Jlall]

Try defending better

[aguahombre]

And even further in the other direction from the OP's thoughts:

Using double as takeout or "stolen" knocks out many chances for serious penalty of frivolous actions over our NT. We still have Leben to compete if we need it, and pass to signify we don't want to compete.

[effervesce]

If you play letting the opps play in 2x as forcing, then (as this should be disclosed to the opponents) then the opponents may pass 2x even though they have game to try to penalise you.

[fromageGB]

So it seems to be unanimous. Many is the time I have been facing rubbish and been grateful when oppos have overcalled partner's NT.

[nigel_k]

Agree with the other posters. Also, I think you must be giving up more than just the ability to pass out their overcall.

If you play double is takeout, immediate suit bid is a one suiter and pulling the forced double is a two suiter, won't you also have problems with perfectly ordinary moderate balanced hands unsuited for a takeout double, where you would just choose a contract after partner's takeout double?

[Infidel]

nigel_k, on Sep 14 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

Agree with the other posters. Also, I think you must be giving up more than just the ability to pass out their overcall.

If you play double is takeout, immediate suit bid is a one suiter and pulling the forced double is a two suiter, won't you also have problems with perfectly ordinary moderate balanced hands unsuited for a takeout double, where you would just choose a contract after partner's takeout double?

I don't understand this one: There;s no takeout double to replace; The double I'm replacing with the relay is the penalty double. That "moderate balanced hand" is in there, too, but my interest was mostly the frequency of a 1N (2x) p-p-p sequence. And, despite the opinions here, it still seems to me I never see that happen. (purely subjective; that's why I was asking)