[the hog]

Again Imps, and again it should not matter.

(1D) 1S (1N)

You hold
x
AJTxx
xx
JT9xx

You want to bid something, (well I do anyway). Does anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with this hand? What would 2D mean? Would it be better served to show a 2 suiter as in the given example rather than a cue raise? Is it even possible for you to have a cue raise on this auction, as there appear to be a lot of points in the deck. (Fwiw everyone had their bid to date.)

Ron

[Dwayne]

I'm with you Hog, I need to take a bid on this hand but you've presented a curly one.

2D must be cue raise.
X is probably penalties
and I'm not really good enough to force with 2♥ or 2♣. I hate the stiff in partner's suit.
2NT would probably tell partner to do something intelligent because I can't, but that forces us to the 3-level.

btw, what is the vulnerabilty? Probably good to know if the oppos play 4- or 5-card Majors and what 1D promises. If 1D promises 3 then I'm more inclined to take a pot at doubling.

Ultimately, I think 2♣ is the lesser of all evils.

Dwayne.

[luke warm]

why is the double penalty and not responsive? it seems it could be at least optional.. i'm not sure but i think root/pavlicek wrote about this sequence

[the hog]

Ok. All vul, but I really don't think this matters much. The opps played standard.
Actually the more I think about this hand the more I have come to two conclusions - one of which I will share later, as it involves showing partner's hand.
The other one is that I am beginning to like X for takeout more and more in this situation.

[inquiry]

I will be all alone on an island here.... I vote, DBL.. .what is the problem? All doubles are takeout until a fit is found. That is what I have, a takeout double. Parnter with diamonds and spades and a fair hand might convert to penalty. That would be ok too.

Sometimes it gets lonely out here on these islands.

Ben

[Free]

Dbl is definetly NOT PENALTY here, come on, who wants to play 1NT*?

I'm used to play transfer advances, this means all bids between opener and overcaller are transfer, here:
2♦ = trf ♥
2♥ = trf ♠, so inv+ hand with support
2♠ = weak raise

This way you don't loose any bid, but you can show a lot more hands than bidding natural:
2♦ = inv+
2♥ = nat
2♠ = weak raise

So I'd go for a transfer in ♥ followed by 3♣, because I have quite a nice hand imo. If p however bids 2♠ instead of 2♥ (total misfit, extra length ♠) then I'll probably pass.

[Dwayne]

inquiry wrote:

Quote

what is the problem? All doubles are takeout until a fit is found.

I'm not convinced this is true for all sequences but I'm open to arguments.

After all, is 1♣ - 1♥ (4♠) takeout? No fit has been found.

There is, after all, a school of thought that says when either side bids NT naturally, then doubles are for penalties. I'm not sure I subscribe to this view either, mind you.

Dwayne

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Jun 15 2004, 02:02 AM, said:

I will be all alone on an island here.... I vote, DBL.. .what is the problem? All doubles are takeout until a fit is found. That is what I have, a takeout double. Parnter with diamonds and spades and a fair hand might convert to penalty. That would be ok too.

Sometimes it gets lonely out here on these islands.

Ben

now ben, you weren't on that island alone.. i think that was the point of my post

Quote

dwayne wrote:
After all, is 1♣ - 1♥ (4♠) takeout? No fit has been found.

in that bidding, i think i wouldn't be surprised if partner left it in or took it out, so i can't double if either action would upset me

[mishovnbg]

dbl: ♣ or ♦ or 5+♥ with semi support ♠ or strong bal(1NT can be psyche or comic)
2♣: 4+♣-4+♥
2♦: 4+♦-4+♥
2♥: 5+♥
2♠: ♠ raise
2NT: inv+ ♠ raise

In example 2♣

Misho

[Fluffy]

Double is penalty because you need to have a bid that shows strenght, with 2♦ showing ♠ fit probably, it may be better to play something more complex, but too much effort for not much profit.

[whereagles]

Regardless of what a double here means, I would bid 2♣ (playing transfer advances I do the same bid, by the way). The plan is to follow with hearts if possible:

(1♦) 1♠ (1NT) 2♣
(2♦) pass (pass) 2♥

(1♦) 1♠ (1NT) 2♣
(2♦) pass (3♦) 3♥

This won't work if I bid hearts first:

(1♦) 1♠ (1NT) 2♥
(3♦) pass (pass) ?? <--- too risky to bid clubs now. Could be a misfit!

(1♦) 1♠ (1NT) 2♥
(pass) pass (3♦) ?? <--- we should have a club fit, but do you want to find that out at the 4-level?

For those who think I'm not strong enough to bid 2♣: this isn't forcing, even if you play it as forcing. Confusing? Not really. Opponents have shown at least 19-20 points, so pard should reason I have a dead minimum for the bidding and will keep silent unless he has a super fit to my suits.

Is 2♣ risky? Hardly. Pard, who's marked with around 10-12 points, didn't bid (1♦)-2♠, so he rates to have 5 spades only. That leaves plenty of room for him to have 3 clubs or 3 hearts. And if he does have 6 spades, he'll rebid them at the 2-level and I'll hush up for good. The only bad thing that can happen is pard having 6331 and we lose the heart fit if pard insists on spades. But I'd rather risk that than to bid hearts and get stuck for a rebid at the 3- or 4-level.

[inquiry]

Dwayne, on Jun 14 2004, 07:46 PM, said:

inquiry wrote:

Quote

what is the problem? All doubles are takeout until a fit is found.

I'm not convinced this is true for all sequences but I'm open to arguments.

After all, is 1♣ - 1♥ (4♠) takeout? No fit has been found.

There is, after all, a school of thought that says when either side bids NT naturally, then doubles are for penalties. I'm not sure I subscribe to this view either, mind you.

Dwayne

Yes.. I play 1♦ - (pass) - 1♥ - (4♠)-DBL for takeout.

This is separtated from a 4NT bid by opener, which is also takeout, in that the dbl implies a mild tolerance for ♥'s. Think doubleton honor or the like, while 4NT is true "two suiter" (in principle).

I see misho has listed the way he has taught me to play. I started to mention it, but decided to go with a more standard treatement. I will say that his method (taken from a pro player), works very well on an incredible number of hands. Basically, you double 1NT with either a minor one suiter or a major two suiter, and you bid 2 of a minor as if DONT (showing that minor and a higher suit). So here, with clubs and ♥'s you simpy bid 2♣. If you only had ♣ you would double, if you only had ♥ you would bid 2♥. If you had ♥ with a mild support for spades you would double and then rebid 2♥, We use this defense against 1NT opening bids in direct and balance seats, against 1NT overcalls (when natural), and against 1NT responses, like here. Same defense, all positions, easy to remember, and effective.

Ben

[luis]

Double here as well, the only bid that doesn't promise some spade tolerance.

[paulg]

Perhaps I've missed something, but I appear to hold a misfitting 6 count but everyone wants to bid .

Agreed that 5-5 is a nice shape but I feel that bidding over opposite a simple overcall with these values will only get us into trouble. 1NT is unlikely to passed out by partner if he holds either (i) a good hand or (ii) a second suit.

There are lots of values left and partner is still there.

Paul

[flytoox]

luke warm, on Jun 15 2004, 12:00 AM, said:

why is the double penalty and not responsive? it seems it could be at least optional.. i'm not sure but i think root/pavlicek wrote about this sequence

i agree that it is better to play dbl here as responsive. This 1N usually is quite serious, and you seldom have chance to profit much from dbling it.


Hongjun

[the hog]

"Perhaps I've missed something, but I appear to hold a misfitting 6 count but everyone wants to bid "

I can't conceive of passing here.

Overcaller held
KJ9xx
Kxxx
void
Kxxx

Yes, you can X instead of bidding 1S, but this is a matter of style whether you want to show your 5 card M or not.

If you pass by the time the bidding gets back to you the opps are in 5D, which makes an overtrick. 5H would be one off if you guess the H position - not difficult.
(1D) 1S (1N) (P)
(5D)

[mishovnbg]

luis, on Jun 15 2004, 05:54 PM, said:

Double here as well, the only bid that doesn't promise some spade tolerance.

Hi Luis, depend of agreements, but is much better if 2♥ deny semi fit, because in missfit is more difficult for opps to double us with less bidding from us.
Misho

[Trpltrbl]

X; 2 unbid suits.

Mike