[inquiry]

In another thread (How do you bid diamonds?, ) Misho suggested:

Quote

Can we begin another thread, where we will discuss several very interesting imo continuations after 2 suited bid by partner? There are several different situations and their combinations:
2 suits known and same (majors or minors)(1♦-2♦, 1M-2NT, 2 suited dbl...)
2 suits known and not same (M-m) - (1m-2NT, 2 suited dbl...)
1 suit known, 1 unknown (1NT raptor, 1♠-2♠ Michaels...)

For all above situations need to determine 2NT(3,4) and dbl/rdbl if they are available too. Do you like same discussion friend? I think will be helpful for all us, becuase nebulous continuations here by bidding theory, at least what I know

I agree that this is a good idea, so I am taking the initiative and starting just such a thread. To keep the initial discussion clear cut, let assume initially the first of his Misho's examples, where both suits are known (either both majors or both minors or a double after opponents bid two suits, showing the other two suits). In each case the bidding is at 2NT or less. So the three auctions to consider are...

#1
(1♦)-2♦-(P)-?

#2
(1♠)-2NT-(P)-?

#3
(1♥)-P-2(♦-DBL
(pass)-?

What special rules/ contintuations do you play in each case?

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben!
I hope our science freinds and expert posters will join to this discussion, unlike one about transfer advances in competition . Do some usefull job please, 2 suited bids are not rare and their continuations, both in competition or not are important!

IMO need to define order of priority, before to discuss meaning of bids. IMO:

1. Negative bids.
2. Separate between constructive and competitive raise in each suit. It is important for 2 suited hand to make right decision about accepting invitation. Are jump bids constructive or preemptive?
3. Choice between suits... Or probably show me, if you have longer suit... This is especially important if opps try to penalize us, but also with constructive hand, which can make game if 2 suiter is longer in some major.
4. Natural bid in suit out of 2 suiter. It is possible to have such suit, how in post "How do you bid diamonds?". But I think it is less important after 2 suiter, because it rare appear.
5. Asking for stopper in opps suit in 2 suited hand. Normally such interest will exist with minor fit and constructive values. I think will very rare happen 2 suited hand to have stopper in short opp suit, but it is still possible. Such possibility need to be least one we have for our bidding.

When we have less available bids, we lose less important bids in order.

What do you think friends?

Misho

[CharlieS]

Max Hardy's book Compteitive Bidding with Two Suited Hands (Devyn Press, 1996) talks extensively about the question raised in this thread. Hardy suggests playing Top and Bottom cue bids with the bottom suit being longer or, if equal length, stronger than the top suit; after a minor suit opening, a jump to the other minor shows a hand with a heart suit but a preference for playing in the suit bid; when holding the two top suits (the majors over 1 of a minor, or diamonds and the other major over a major suit opening) one doubles and makes an "equal level correction" if advancer bids the lowest unbid suit; two no-trump shows at least 5-5 distribution in the two lowest unbid suits, and four, five and six no-trumps having more offensive potential.

Equal level correction does not imply extra values. If one has a hand he wishes to show extra values and the LOWEST equal level suit, the doubler must jump in that suit at his next opportunity.

Hardy also talks about advancing two suited overcalls and doubles.

The apporach Hardy reccommends is unorthodox, but my feeling is that it would be very effective if implemented. I have not tried the approach because I haven't found someone to play the system.

Comments are welcome.

[luis]

Ok this is what I play:

Suit at level: Simple preference.
Jump in a suit: Mixed raise, preemptive or semi-preemptive. Usually 9 trumps.
2N/3NT: Asking for the best suit.
Cuebid: Transfer to 3NT either to play or to show a slam try in a suit.
Jump in a new suit : Values in the remaining suit and a game forcing raise in one of the suits.
New suit: Forcing. Natural.


So:

#1
(1♦)-2♦-(P)-?
2h/2s: preference
2NT: Asking for best suit
3c: Natural and forcing.
3d: Please bid 3NT (freakish hands can skip 3N)
3h/3s: Mixed
3NT: Asking for best suit (at the 4 level)
4c: Values in clubs and a GF raise in a major

#2
(1♠)-2NT-(P)-?
3c/3d: preference
3h: Natural and forcing:
3s: Please bid 3NT
3N: Pick a minor
4c/4d: Mixed
4h: GF raise in a minor, values in hearts.

#3
(1♥)-P-2(♦-DBL
(pass)-?

I think this is a whole different situation since pd can be even 4-4 in the remaining suits or have a strong one-suited hand or others. :-)

Luis

[Fluffy]

(1♥)-p-(2♦)-X-(p)

after this I play:

2♠/3♣, to play
2NT= nat
3♦/♥ The suit I stop, looking for partner to maybe bid 3NT
3♠/4♣ limit.

Too unscientific probably, will think something more complicated when I find aregular partner .

[DrTodd13]

Luis....I didn't see that any of your bids were invitational.
Am I missing something?

Todd

[luis]

DrTodd13, on May 28 2004, 12:29 AM, said:

Luis....I didn't see that any of your bids were invitational.
Am I missing something?

Todd

You are not missing anything :-)
I think that invitational bids are sub-optimal after a two suiter. Overcaller usually has what he thinks is a "normal" two suiter so when does he "Accepts" when not? Better bid to what responder thinks he can make and when that's slightly overboard it either makes or is a good save against something.

I reckon an invitation can work in some particular hands but in the long run I prefer not to bother about invitations.

[Flame]

DrTodd13, on May 27 2004, 07:29 PM, said:

Luis....I didn't see that any of your bids were invitational.
Am I missing something?

Todd

Maybe when its possible partner can response to 2nt differently with min/max.
like
1♦ 2♦ p 2nt
p ?

you have many bids avaliable here so you can play something like 3c = heart good 3d = spade good, 3M = weak.

Thinking about it again it might be better to play 3M as the strong and 3c/3d as weak or super strong (which will cue bid on the next round)

[Trpltrbl]

I play mostly like Luis does, except I have the Cuebid and Jump in new suit reversed. I like it better that way.

Mike

[inquiry]

Ok, I will take a stab here at trying to find meaning to all the issues misho raised. 1) signoff bids, 2) constructive versus competitive raises, 3) choice between suits, 4) Natural bid in third suit, and 5) Ask for stopper

#1
(1♦)-2♦-(P)-?

• 2♥/2♠ - to play may not be a real fit, got to bid something
  
• 3♥/3♠ - preemptive
  
• 2NT - obstensively lebehnsol like. Despite partner's two suiter, partner is expected to bid 3♣ This maybe prelude to bailing in 3♣, or game invite with either major, or ask for a ♦ stopper (rebid 3♦)
  
• 3♣ - natural and forcing. 3NT by either parnter promise ♦ stopper
  
• 3♦ Bid best suit, with a jump if you are good for the auction
  
• 3NT - always to play (luis way has lead through your stopper to opener)
  
• 4♦ - Correct to 4♠ (for pick a suit, you can go through 2NT then 4♦ or 3♦ and just raise to 4
  
• 4♣ - Correct to 4♥ (for pick a suit, you can go through 2NT then 4♦ or 3♦ and just raise to 4. To bid clubs to four level naturally, go through 2NT

You can signoff in any suit (2h/2s/2NT-->3C), invite game in either major (3d), get to 3NT (3NT or 3♣ followed by 3NT), invite game in either major (2NT-->3♣-->bid major), force to game in eihter major as declearer or as dummy.

#2
(1♠)-2NT-(P)-?

• 3c/3d: preference, weak
  
• 4c/4d, or 5c/5d = preemptive or in case of five maybe to make
  
• 3h: not forcing. Last thing partner wants to hear is ♥'s, so try not to bid it
  
• 3s: Range ask, game try. 3NT is yucky minimum. 4♣ is fair hand with a singleton, 4♦ is fair hand with a void, 4♥ is great hand with singleton, 4♠ great hand with void, Relay (4♥ over 4♣, with 4♦ to play) ask for short.
  
• 3NT - to play
  
• 4♠ - rkcb for ♣
  
• 4NT - pick a minor (to use RKCB for ♦, bid 3♠ first, followed by 4NT

#3
(1♥)-P-2(♦)-DBL
(pass)-?

• 2♠ = to play
  
• 2♥ = mild game try. 2♥ bidder can pass a 2♠ (minimum rebid). 2NT by initial bidder convey's a near maximum hand, more balanced in nature, while a 3♣ bid by doubler shows a nice distributional hand with much longer ♣. A jump to 3♠ over 2♥ conveys at least five good hearts and extra values.
  
• 2NT = good/bad likely to pass 3♣ bid, but a correction to 3♠ would be game invite, while a delayed 3♦, and 3♥ cue-bids convey game interest looking for stopper in bid suit
  
• 3♣ = mildly preemptive but with some values (that is better than 2NT, but not as good as 2♥
  
• 3♦ = high cue-bid, essentially game force, promises ♣ fit. If doubler bids 3♥ he promises a ♥ stopper/control.
  
• 3♥ = super high cue-bid, promises ♠ as trumps
  
• 3NT to play
  
• 4♣ = preemptive/to play
  
• 4♠ = preemptive/to play
  
• 4♦ = RKCB for ♠
  
• 4♥ = RKCB for ♣
  
• 4NT = two suit RKCB.

ok.. probably a ton of holes (biggest is trying to remember all this...) but hopefully someone can improve on the idea to maximize what bids show.

[the hog]

This is what we play:

(1D+) - 2NT = 55 in two lowest unbid suits;
wide strength range, concentrated values.
RESP:
All = nat, NF. 4m (raise) = lets 2NTer sacrifice if CONC in suit m.

If they (X):
Pass = you choose. Then XX = no preference, but feel free to bid fourth suit.
XX = Stop Sign.
Others = system on.

(1x) - 2x = 55 in highest unbid suit + another
RESP:
2NT = ART: bid your minor. Then new suits = F1,
3M = inv.
Others = nat, NF.
If they (X):
Pass = you choose. Then XX = my second suit is higher, but feel free to bid lower.
XX = Stop Sign.
Others = system on.

[keylime]

Adjunct: How does the method change in structure with mini-maxi verus continous ranges for two suited overcalls?

[mishovnbg]

keylime, on May 29 2004, 06:14 AM, said:

Adjunct: How does the method change in structure with mini-maxi verus continous ranges for two suited overcalls?

Hi Dwayne!
Yes, range is important. If you play mini-maxi method, then Luis's method seems good. For continous ranges you need invitational bids too. IMO continous ranges 2 suiters are not very popular, because despite clear tactical advantages you need more complicate scheme of responses after it, like after any normal opening. One such scheme Ben already propose in this thread. I am still doubt about any scheme, else I will post it here. Dwayne, if you have some ideas about continuatons, pls post them here.
Misho

[inquiry]

Understand, i don't play what I posted. I was just trying to devise a method to hit as many (all if possible) of misho's requirement for a continuation scheme...

1) Negative bids.
2) Separate between constructive and competitive raise in each suit.
3) Partner pick a suit
4) Natural bid in suit out of 2 suiter.
5. Asking for stopper in opps suit in 2 suited hand.

And i added a 6th, be able to bid 3NT yourself. Tough requirements with so little room.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

I had a long discussion of greatest bulgarian bridge theorist uncle Bill. Some of ideas are mine, but general direction was given by him.

Method "BM2SC" of continuation after 2 suiters:

With RHO silent:
Direct bids in shown suits are negative(competitive), jump fits are preemtive(or mixed).
Unbidded suit without jump is natural and NF but inv, not sign off. Unbidded suit with jump below/above game show solid suit, GF with slam interest, jump at game denied slam interest.
2NT(or 4NT without jump after leaping michaels): any inv hand or strong hand with lower suit(m) fit or strong hand with unbid suit. P describe his hand by paradox bids (skipped bid means higher play at skipped suit).
3NT: to play (or preemtive raise without any defense if you play R/S method).
Cue bid:
-if 2NT(4NT) is available: limit+ raise of higher suit (M).
-f 2NT(4NT) is not available: : limit+ raise of any suit, paradox responses

RHO bid: like silent RHO, except:
Pass after opps dbl: equal negative choice or strong hand for penalty double later.
2NT: inv+ raise lower suit(m) or strong hand with unbid suit.
DBL/RDBL:
-if 2NT(4NT) is available: limit+ raise of higher suit (M).
-if 2NT(4NT) is not available: : limit+ raise of any suit, paradox responses
Cue bid: slam interest, any hand, paradox responses

Examples:

(1♦) - 2♦ - p - ?
2♥/♠: negative
3/4♥/♠: preemptive
2NT: any inv, paradox continuations
3♣: nat, NF, inv
3♦: fit ♠, limit raise+
3NT: to play (or R/S weak preempt)
4♣: solid or semi solid 6+♣, slam interest
4♦: fit, slam interest, any M, paradox continuations

(1♦) - 2♦ - (DBL) - ?
Pass: equal choice or strong missfit
RDBL: fit ♠, inv+
2NT: fit ♥, inv+

(1♦) - 2♦ - (3♦) - ?
DBL: inv+, any, paradox responses



(1♠) - 2NT - (p) - ?
3♣/♦: negative choice
4/5♣/♦: preemptive
3♥: nat, NF, inv
3♠: inv+, any, paradox continuations
3NT: to play (or R/S weak preempt)
4♥: to play, limit
4♠: fit, slam interest, paradox continuations

(1♠) - 2NT - (DBL) - ?
Pass: equal choice or strong missfit
RDBL: inv+, any
3♠: slam interest, any, paradox continuations

(1♠) - 2NT - (3♠) - ?
DBL: inv+, any, paradox continuations
4♠: slam interest, any, paradox continuations



(1♠) - p - (1NT) - 2♦{5+♦-4+♥}
(p) - ?

pass/2♥: negative
3/4♦/♥: preemptive
2♠: fit ♥, inv+
2NT: fit ♦, inv+
3♣: nat, NF, inv
3♠: slam interest, any, paradox continuations
3NT: (or R/S weak preempt)


(1♠) - p - (1NT) - 2♦{5+♦-4+♥}
(DBL) - ?
RDBL: 3 fit ♥, inv+
2♠: 4+ fit ♥, inv+
2NT: fit ♦, inv+


(1♠) - p - (1NT) - 2♦{5+♦-4+♥}
(2♠) - ?
DBL: fit ♥, inv+
2NT: fit ♦, inv+

P.S. Ben, on 2 suiters 2NT must have opposite meaning (minor fit instead of major fit) because level and right sided NT contracts. On 1 suited overcalls still normal meaning of 2NT: on major constructive, on minor preemtive/gf.

Misho

[inquiry]

Misho, this scheme looks very playable, and not (that) hard to remember, so let's add it to our bidding and see how it goes. Giving up on the ability to bail out in the "fourth" suit is no huge loss anyway, as I usually try to pick one of my partners suit and stick it out.

The easy part: Direct raises are weak. Ok, easy, as is fourth suit, non-forcing but invitational. 3NT is already how I play (go R/S)... So the cute trick here is 2NT/4NT without a jump as forcing raise for lower suit partner showed, or the unbid suit great hand, and using paradox responses. That is very nice, and makes free the cue-bid to clarify which suit is being supported. But I think you got one auction wrong in your notes.. you said that

(1♦)-2♦-(P)-3♦ was limit plus in either suit, but this seems like it should be limit plus in ♠'s, since 2NT is available.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

inquiry, on Jun 25 2004, 04:47 PM, said:

Misho, this scheme looks very playable, and not (that) hard to remember, so let's add it to our bidding and see how it goes. Giving up on the ability to bail out in the "fourth" suit is no huge loss anyway, as I usually try to pick one of my partners suit and stick it out.

The easy part: Direct raises are weak. Ok, easy, as is fourth suit, non-forcing but invitational. 3NT is already how I play (go R/S)... So the cute trick here is 2NT/4NT without a jump as forcing raise for lower suit partner showed, or the unbid suit great hand, and using paradox responses. That is very nice, and makes free the cue-bid to clarify which suit is being supported. But I think you got one auction wrong in your notes.. you said that

(1♦)-2♦-(P)-3♦ was limit plus in either suit, but this seems like it should be limit plus in ♠'s, since 2NT is available.

Ben

Yes Ben, mistake in example, sorry, I will correct it, thank you!
Misho