[ONEferBRID]

Pard You
1NT - ( p ) - p - ( 2C! Capp )
p - ( 2D! ) - DBL = ??

What does your DBL mean ?

1) I only have 7 hcp at most ( since I passed your 1NT opening ),
but I have at least 5 cards Diam for penalty.

or 2) T/O of Diam.
Yes, the Capp bidder may have a Diam suit,
so this may be my last chance to compete.
I have 4/4, 4/3, or 3/4 in the majors w/ 7 hcp
and at most 2 cards Diam.

- - Don - -

[helene_t]

t/o

[jillybean]

Ah, the million dollar question.

It means what ever your partner thinks it means.

[the hog]

I would say that penalty makes the most sense to me.

[Hanoi5]

I think it could be any. It's a matter of agreement.

[peachy]

Whatever the meaning, at least I have a maximum passed hand. Both Penalty (of diamonds) and Takeout (of diamonds) work, also plain "cards" is ok. But which is it?. If I were forced to guess without agreement, I would guess penalty of diamonds as this is last chance to Dbl them if they end up in diamonds and ability to sit if partner doubles their 2M.

In undiscussed situations, some folks have a metarule. If you have one, use it here:)

[JoAnneM]

I think it shows diamonds, a max pass, and that's where the points are, so lead directing.

[jdonn]

To me this is obviously showing diamonds since 2♦ is an artificial bid, so I guess "penalty" although I think that is the wrong word for it. Why cater to the 1/4 of the time overcaller has diamonds? Anyway I also transfer to a 5 card major on weak hands 100% of the time opposite 1NT, so if I have a takeout I can bid 2 of a major over 2♦ showing 4 of that and another place to play.

I feel like a year or two ago when this question last came up on the forums I was in the minority, but I haven't changed my mind.

[655321]

jdonn, on Jun 13 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

To me this is obviously showing diamonds since 2♦ is an artificial bid, so I guess "penalty" although I think that is the wrong word for it. Why cater to the 1/4 of the time overcaller has diamonds? Anyway I also transfer to a 5 card major on weak hands 100% of the time opposite 1NT, so if I have a takeout I can bid 2 of a major over 2♦ showing 4 of that and another place to play.

I feel like a year or two ago when this question last came up on the forums I was in the minority, but I haven't changed my mind.

This thread probably.

I still play this double as takeout

[jdonn]

How do people find these old threads?

[andy_h]

Probably agreement I guess, but I play it as a takeout as well. Typically 4414 or 4423 or 4324. By bidding 2M probably shows 4M5m unsuitable for a t/o dbl and can't have 5M since I would have transferred.

[gnasher]

Something no one seems to have suggested in that old thread is that with a 4423 or 3424 shape responder can bid 2♥ over 2♦. If you always transfer with a five-card major, 2♥ is known to be a four-card suit, and therefore shows either this hand-type or four hearts and five clubs. If there's a fit to be found you're not much worse off than after a takeout double.

Similarly, but less safely, with a 4324 shape you can bid 2♠ over 2♦.

[ONEferBRID]

gnasher, on Jun 14 2009, 03:42 AM, said:

Something no one seems to have suggested in that old thread is that with a 4423 or 3424 shape responder can bid 2♥ over 2♦. If you always transfer with a five-card major, 2♥ is known to be a four-card suit, and therefore shows either this hand-type or four hearts and five clubs. If there's a fit to be found you're not much worse off than after a takeout double.

Similarly, but less safely, with a 4324 shape you can bid 2♠ over 2♦.

Opinions on this DBL, here and elsewhere, seem to be split between:
1) I got Diams, and
2) I 'ain't' got Diams ( ie. T/O ).

And, the partnership needs prior agreemnts for this special case.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If for T/O, I think you can narrow down the hands Responder might have:
Max 7hcp; 4/3 or 3/4 in the Majors; and 1 or 2 cards Diam; ergo 4 or 5 cards Cl.

The reasoning: With a weak hand you INITIALLY ( 1NT - p - ?? ) would:
-- transfer with a 5cd Major. or transfer to Hts with 4s/5h (and forget
about Sp).
-- use Trash Stayman with a 4/4
-- transfer with a 6+ card minor.
-- would not take any action( initially or later) with a 4=3-3-3.
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If you use gnasher's treatment, you could bid 2H or 2S (showing your 4 card Major w/3 in the other Major).
Opener would also know you had 4 or 5 cards in Cl in case s/he felt the need to "run" .
And then, alternatively, the DBL could be used to show 5 cards Diam.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Another option using gnasher's treatment is to use the DBL to always show the 4 card Sp hand ( w/3h ) and bidding 2H with 3s/4h. Again, you would have also have a 4 or 5 card Cl suit in either case.

- - Don Stenmark - -

[helene_t]

I think it is technically better to let it show diamonds, unless your notrump structure includes a weak t/o 2♦ or puppet stayman so that responder will rarely have five diamonds.

But the generic principle is that when opps bid a suit they may have, it is t/o. That applies to multi and to the 3♣ answer to the 2♠ minor suit transfer in sayc. So without specific discussion of this case I would assume t/o.

[jdonn]

helene_t, on Jun 14 2009, 09:57 AM, said:

I think it is technically better to let it show diamonds, unless your notrump structure includes a weak t/o 2♦ or puppet stayman so that responder will rarely have five diamonds.

But the generic principle is that when opps bid a suit they may have, it is t/o. That applies to multi and to the 3♣ answer to the 2♠ minor suit transfer in sayc. So without specific discussion of this case I would assume t/o.

Not to bring back the other thread, but there are important differences.

1. They have one of two suits in those situations, one of four suits in this situation.
2. a. The suit they bid in multi is more likely than 50% to be opener's suit since, for example, responder with long hearts and short spades responds 2♠.
2. b. You are rarely going to want to compete to the 4 level over the 3♣ bid.

[gwnn]

jdonn, on Jun 14 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

How do people find these old threads?

Usually I remember a word or small expression somebody wrote (often I remember some incredibly witty thing I said), then search for it. It's a bit of trial and error. Sometimes people leave their search terms in the link and it is highlighted. I think it's a little lame and am always sure to remove the search term.