[the hog]

Not wanting to hijack the grand thread on the other forum, I decided to post this here.
As I stated in that thread, I actually prefer playing 1M - 2C as a gfr, and my rant, (and Cascade's I suppose), was rather that 2C was assumed with no continuations etc given.

I would guess that most US players who bid 2C on that hand do not play this as a relay.
Hence the following questions, and i am particularly, but not only of course, interested in hearing Ken's comments on this.

I will assume that raising the minor over 1M 2m 3m shows extra values, ok?
The auction is always 1S 2C

Opener has a 5044 shape. Can opener splinter? I guess not, but what happens if responder really has Cs?

Opener has a 4224 shape. Can opener raise Cs?

Opener has a 5044 shape, responder has a 2443. The players are in the slam zone. How can the D fit be found after this start?

I am curious to know how those not playing relays play their follow ups.

[kenrexford]

It is a lot easier to understand how the follow-ups work for me if you understand the theory first.

The idea is that Responder bids 2♣ in a different way than in "normal" in one situation -- he has support for Opener's major. The specific problem from the other post was unique for me because Responder has an 18-count, which is difficult to bid, and because he wants to keep the bidding low AND to make that club bid with hope that it ultimately will be a preparatory bid for a cuebidding sequence.

On that latter point... If Opener rebids anything over 2♣ other than 3♣, Responder is tickled to death because he has just pre-cued clubs, it will turn out. That one risk of a 3♣ raise will be paid off whenever Opener bids any of the other three suits and then Responder raises that other suit, as now Opener will be able to cue the club Queen OR Responder will be able to cue two club cards rather than one.

So, to the continuations.

Opener bids as if 2♣ was pure Max Hardy natural. Raising the minor shows "extras" in the same sense that you don't necessarily raise with three-card support.

But, the specific problems...

Opener has a 5044 shape. Can opener splinter? I guess not, but what happens if responder really has Cs?

Sure, Opener can splinter. If he bids 3♥ as a splinter, and Responder bids 3♠ to say that he had the exception hand, the splinter turned out to be useful for an unexpected reason. If Responder has the balanced 18-count with hope of setting up a cue for later, Responder's move just caught the death hand. Life sucks sometimes.

Opener has a 4224 shape. Can opener raise Cs?

First, pick up the spade on the floor. Then, yes. Again, for me, Responder either has real clubs OR he has spade support. If Responder now bids 3♠, our focus has just changed. No space was lost, but unfortunately none was gained.

Opener has a 5044 shape, responder has a 2443. The players are in the slam zone. How can the D fit be found after this start?

Again, that's the death hand. I suppose that there is one solution -- the "impossible" 4NT. 1♠-P-2♣-P-3♣-P-4NT makes no sense. I mean, as I play, the cheapest out-of-focus major is RKCB, so 4NT should, in theory, be Exclusion RKCB, agreeing clubs, with a void in hearts. Maybe quantitative would come up more often, to handle this one exception as more likely than the opponents having 10 spades but never mentioning them. So, maybe 4NT should be played as showing 2443 and an 18-count, with a better high-honor club holding than the high-honor diamond holding. I could be persuaded easily.

[hanp]

When you decide not to bid 2D because you have four bad diamonds then you may get a bad score when you belong in diamonds. You may also get a good score when you don't belong in diamonds of course. If 2D shows 4 good diamonds or 5+ diamonds then partner has an easier time when you do respond 2D.

Partner knows that 1S - 2C is always suspect because, as mikeh pointed out, there are shapes when where you will bid this with 3 anyway. When you agree to play a style where you tend to bid 2C with gameforcing balanced hands then partner is even more aware of this possibility.

[RichMor]

kenrexford, on Jun 11 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

Opener has a 5044 shape. Can opener splinter? I guess not, but what happens if responder really has Cs?

Sure, Opener can splinter.  If he bids 3♥ as a splinter, and Responder bids 3♠ to say that he had the exception hand, the splinter turned out to be useful for an unexpected reason.  If Responder has the balanced 18-count with hope of setting up a cue for later, Responder's move just caught the death hand.  Life sucks sometimes.

=======================================

Opener has a 5044 shape, responder has a 2443. The players are in the slam zone. How can the D fit be found after this start?

Again, that's the death hand.  I suppose that there is one solution -- the "impossible" 4NT.  1♠-P-2♣-P-3♣-P-4NT makes no sense.  I mean, as I play, the cheapest out-of-focus major is RKCB, so 4NT should, in theory, be Exclusion RKCB, agreeing clubs, with a void in hearts.  Maybe quantitative would come up more often, to handle this one exception as more likely than the opponents having 10 spades but never mentioning them.  So, maybe 4NT should be played as showing 2443 and an 18-count, with a better high-honor club holding than the high-honor diamond holding.  I could be persuaded easily.

Ken,

The para about the 'death hand' is confusing to me,

If opener can splinter over a 2♣ response with 5=0=4=4, doesn't responder with 2=4=4=3 knows about a Diamond fit?

Thanks,
RichM

[kenrexford]

RichMor, on Jun 12 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jun 11 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

Opener has a 5044 shape. Can opener splinter? I guess not, but what happens if responder really has Cs?

Sure, Opener can splinter.  If he bids 3♥ as a splinter, and Responder bids 3♠ to say that he had the exception hand, the splinter turned out to be useful for an unexpected reason.  If Responder has the balanced 18-count with hope of setting up a cue for later, Responder's move just caught the death hand.  Life sucks sometimes.

=======================================

Opener has a 5044 shape, responder has a 2443. The players are in the slam zone. How can the D fit be found after this start?

Again, that's the death hand.  I suppose that there is one solution -- the "impossible" 4NT.  1♠-P-2♣-P-3♣-P-4NT makes no sense.  I mean, as I play, the cheapest out-of-focus major is RKCB, so 4NT should, in theory, be Exclusion RKCB, agreeing clubs, with a void in hearts.  Maybe quantitative would come up more often, to handle this one exception as more likely than the opponents having 10 spades but never mentioning them.  So, maybe 4NT should be played as showing 2443 and an 18-count, with a better high-honor club holding than the high-honor diamond holding.  I could be persuaded easily.

Ken,

The para about the 'death hand' is confusing to me,

If opener can splinter over a 2♣ response with 5=0=4=4, doesn't responder with 2=4=4=3 knows about a Diamond fit?

Thanks,
RichM

The simple answer is that the splinter would not show 5044. Opener could also be 5134, 5125, 5035, or something else.

[Mbodell]

RichMor, on Jun 12 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

If opener can splinter over a 2♣ response with 5=0=4=4, doesn't responder with 2=4=4=3 knows about a Diamond fit?

Thanks,
RichM

Surely I can splinter 3♥ with 5035 or 6025. Or even maybe a pure 5134.