[jdonn]

Also for an on-topic unwritten rule, check out the second post in this thread.

[matmat]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

Also for an on-topic unwritten rule, check out the second post in this thread.

i don't think that's an unwritten rule either. There are (or at least, should be) palpable consequences for breaking a rule. if you, as an expert, psych against a novice, maybe it will raise some eyebrows, maybe the TD will say something to you at the end of the session, but you will not be, in any way, directly penalized. unethical, maybe, unsporting, probably...

[jdonn]

You are getting way too caught up in the terminology. An unwritten rule is not a rule as you are using the terms.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

Also for an on-topic unwritten rule, check out the second post in this thread.

That is no rule unwritten or otherwise.

It is an attempt by a group of people to claim the moral high ground without any basis.

As I have pointed out it is at best patronizing.

[jdonn]

Cascade, on Jun 10 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

Also for an on-topic unwritten rule, check out the second post in this thread.

That is no rule unwritten or otherwise.

Because you said so?

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

Cascade, on Jun 10 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

Also for an on-topic unwritten rule, check out the second post in this thread.

That is no rule unwritten or otherwise.

Because you said so?

"Director please"

"Cascade has broken an unwritten rule"

LOL

[jdonn]

You just made up a quote that no one would ever claim and LOLed yourself? Ok.

Of course I wouldn't call the director for such a thing, in fact I think it is inherent in the definition that the referee or director can't enforce such a thing. Punishment for breaking unwritten rules comes in other forms. Cherdanno made a good rundown of one example.

cherdanno, on Jun 9 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

In the soccer example, you are right the referee couldn't to anything. But the fans of the team would be embarassed, the fans of the opposing team outraged, and probably someone of the opponents would retaliate with an ugly foul. The commentators would be understanding of the ugly foul. If anyone in the team had been in the running of a fair-play award, the betfair odds for them would drop to 0.1% within a minute. These are all signs that there is a consensus that this is unacceptable unfair behavior.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 08:17 AM, said:

You just made up a quote that no one would ever claim and LOLed yourself? Ok.

Of course I wouldn't call the director for such a thing, in fact I think it is inherent in the definition that the referee or director can't enforce such a thing. Punishment for breaking unwritten rules comes in other forms. Cherdanno made a good rundown of one example.

cherdanno, on Jun 9 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

In the soccer example, you are right the referee couldn't to anything. But the fans of the team would be embarassed, the fans of the opposing team outraged, and probably someone of the opponents would retaliate with an ugly foul. The commentators would be understanding of the ugly foul. If anyone in the team had been in the running of a fair-play award, the betfair odds for them would drop to 0.1% within a minute. These are all signs that there is a consensus that this is unacceptable unfair behavior.

I suppose that is fair ...

If they are unwritten then they are unenforcable.

I like that.

What do you call these things?

Oh rules.

LOL

[jdonn]

A sea horse is not a horse either. Get over it.

[TimG]

One definition of rule is "an accepted procedure, custom, or habit". It does not have to be formalized as through bylaws or documented as Law.

[matmat]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

You just made up a quote that no one would ever claim and LOLed yourself? Ok.

Of course I wouldn't call the director for such a thing, in fact I think it is inherent in the definition that the referee or director can't enforce such a thing. Punishment for breaking unwritten rules comes in other forms. Cherdanno made a good rundown of one example.

cherdanno, on Jun 9 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

In the soccer example, you are right the referee couldn't to anything. But the fans of the team would be embarassed, the fans of the opposing team outraged, and probably someone of the opponents would retaliate with an ugly foul. The commentators would be understanding of the ugly foul. If anyone in the team had been in the running of a fair-play award, the betfair odds for them would drop to 0.1% within a minute. These are all signs that there is a consensus that this is unacceptable unfair behavior.

This is a rather poor analogy, actually.

It is within the referee's rights to stop play when they deem the injury to be serious enough to warrant immediate attention. Play restarts with a drop ball. Additionally, FIFA has, fairly recently, stated that players should not kick the ball out of bounds in the event of a player seeming to need medical attention, and that they should leave it up to the ref to decide.

The flip side is that, more often than not, the injury is being simulated so as to slow down or stop the play.

IMO it is generally a terrible idea to try to compare ethics in any field to those in soccer, or at least in the men's game. The woman's game seems somehow more 'fair play' oriented.

[jillybean]

Jlall, on Jun 7 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

The one time I think it's unacceptable is if you are an expert playing against a novice in a minor event (if it is something like a flight A regional then they must be playing up and you don't have to cater to them anymore).

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

Also for an on-topic unwritten rule, check out the second post in this thread.

Hi J and J,

This unwritten rule seems unworkable and would create an uneven playing field, how do you identify novices who would be protected from psyches?

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 08:36 AM, said:

A sea horse is not a horse either. Get over it.

I am over it.

I think i have it straight these "unwritten rules" are not "rules" so we don't need to obey them.

That's good because I was starting to worry that this "unwritten rule" might be considered discourteous because it is patronizing and force me to violate the "written rules" for which I might incur a penalty.

[jillybean]

matmat, on Jun 10 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

IMO it is generally a terrible idea to try to compare ethics in any field to those in soccer, or at least in the men's game. The woman's game seems somehow more 'fair play' oriented.

Hell, dont start this

[Gerben42]

Quote

IMO it is generally a terrible idea to try to compare ethics in any field to those in soccer, or at least in the men's game. The woman's game seems somehow more 'fair play' oriented.

Yes, I think it's appalling that players go down when they think they have been slightly touched by the opponent and claim that is a reasonable strategy. Don't know about women's soccer, I don't like the game much regardless of who is playing.

[peachy]

Lobowolf, on Jun 10 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

I don't believe in unwritten rules.  Could you post one of them?

When someone accidentially drops a card on the floor, avert your eyes so as not to see it if it landed face up.

I would turn my head to not see it. Same about seeing somebody else's cards because they are holding them so that others can see. I would tell them I can see them if I looked. Those are my personal values, or ethics if we want to stay within the topic, nothing to do with the laws of bridge. I am sure the majority shares those values.

[Lobowolf]

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Jun 10 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

I don't believe in unwritten rules.  Could you post one of them?

When someone accidentially drops a card on the floor, avert your eyes so as not to see it if it landed face up.

I would turn my head to not see it. Same about seeing somebody else's cards because they are holding them so that others can see. I would tell them I can see them if I looked. Those are my personal values, or ethics if we want to stay within the topic, nothing to do with the laws of bridge. I am sure the majority shares those values.

If they were incorporated into the laws of bridge, they'd be "written rules."

[jdonn]

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Jun 10 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

I don't believe in unwritten rules.  Could you post one of them?

When someone accidentially drops a card on the floor, avert your eyes so as not to see it if it landed face up.

I would turn my head to not see it. Same about seeing somebody else's cards because they are holding them so that others can see. I would tell them I can see them if I looked. Those are my personal values, or ethics if we want to stay within the topic, nothing to do with the laws of bridge. I am sure the majority shares those values.

Exactly, the majority of players are happy to play by the unwritten rules. Some bridge lawyers are not.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 11 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Jun 10 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

I don't believe in unwritten rules.  Could you post one of them?

When someone accidentially drops a card on the floor, avert your eyes so as not to see it if it landed face up.

I would turn my head to not see it. Same about seeing somebody else's cards because they are holding them so that others can see. I would tell them I can see them if I looked. Those are my personal values, or ethics if we want to stay within the topic, nothing to do with the laws of bridge. I am sure the majority shares those values.

Exactly, the majority of players are happy to play by the unwritten rules. Some bridge lawyers are not.

are you referring to me?

[peachy]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Jun 10 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 10 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

I don't believe in unwritten rules.  Could you post one of them?

When someone accidentially drops a card on the floor, avert your eyes so as not to see it if it landed face up.

I would turn my head to not see it. Same about seeing somebody else's cards because they are holding them so that others can see. I would tell them I can see them if I looked. Those are my personal values, or ethics if we want to stay within the topic, nothing to do with the laws of bridge. I am sure the majority shares those values.

Exactly, the majority of players are happy to play by the unwritten rules. Some bridge lawyers are not.

I'm not sure what you mean. Bridge lawyers know the law and play by the rules and enjoy the benefit of seldom being on the short end of a ruling because they are as good or better than a TD in applying the laws/rules. It is not unethical to be knowledgeable about the rules and know how they apply. It is also not unethical to be world class and execute a squeeze while other players mess up their transportation and fail. It is a n acquired skill. Some have acquired law skill, why berate them for it.

Personal values are not part of bridge laws. I keep repeating this but it does not sit well with some folks. So I won't say it any more. But personal values should not be instituted into the laws, IMO.