[jillybean]

Phil, on Jun 7 2009, 10:01 PM, said:

Once you've seen a nice beginner leave a duplicate game because of experts psyching and such, you'll understand this viewpoint.

experts psyching 'and such' , what else would you ban in order to protect beginners who chose to play in open games?

[cherdanno]

jillybean2, on Jun 8 2009, 12:50 AM, said:

Phil, on Jun 7 2009, 10:01 PM, said:

Once you've seen a nice beginner leave a duplicate game because of experts psyching and such, you'll understand this viewpoint.

experts psyching 'and such' , what else would you ban in order to protect beginners who chose to play in open games?

How about cheating when writing down the score? (Happened to me in my first duplicate and didn't notice it until looking through the results at the end.)
Ok these weren't experts, of course. And it amused me more than driving me away.

[jkljkl]

Phil, on Jun 8 2009, 12:01 AM, said:

Please don't feed me the line about 'psyching is bridge'. This is for those that live in ivory towers and are detached from what happens on a day to day basis in clubland.

Once you've seen a nice beginner leave a duplicate game because of experts psyching and such, you'll understand this viewpoint.

Hello

peculiar how different our experiences are.

a) I cannot remember to have seen a beginner leave a Club due of a psyche. This since
- psychs are extremly rare.
- Sometimes they don't even get it.
- They bid their hand without giving a thought about opponents bids.

b) I remember many beginners being stunned due of ferocious attacks by those 20+ years customer that consider a deviation bid/hand a mortal sin.

Do I think that b) is a natural extension of the supported view about "nop pychs"? Yes I do.

ciao stefan
germany

[Cascade]

Phil, on Jun 8 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

Once you've seen a nice beginner leave a duplicate game because of experts psyching and such, you'll understand this viewpoint.

I will reserve judgement until I see it happen and then we will see if I understand.

In the meantime I will treat such views with the disdain that they deserve.

Surely educating players that this is a normal part of the game is a much better strategy that putting pressure on players who are employing a legitimate tactic in some sort of attempt to make them feel guilty would be much better.

This negativity towards legitimate tactics really deserves one of Justin's LOL's.

[jdonn]

If a beginner quit coming to a club because they felt cheating after being psyched against, how would anyone know it? I doubt they would come back one last time just to announce they were quitting. I'm not trying to argue it happens all the time since I honestly don't know, but two very unconvincing arguments that it doesn't happen often are "I have never seen it happen" and "I am/was a beginner who didn't mind at all and/or didn't quit when it happened against me."

I would certainly argue that if you want beginners to keep coming back, rudeness and slow play are (much) bigger problems than psyching. Now that may be only due to frequency, since both those occurrences seem to happen all the time whereas psyching is less frequent. But I think it's pretty clearly the case nonetheless.

[wclass___]

Let's say you have already made a psychic bid in known auction (e.g. 1♥-[X]-1♠).
Does it mean that you can't psyche here with same partner anymore?
Or you have to prealert?
Can psyche be part of a system?

[Gerben42]

Quote

I am one of those intermediate players some think best to protect from psyches. When I play in an open field, I hope the players will play their best game. If this means psyching, false carding or playing multi so be it, it’s all part of this wonderfully complex game. The first time I encounter something new it can throw me and I get a bottom board. I don’t stop playing, I can learn from it and maybe the next time or the 5th time it happens I will be prepared and get a top board. That buzz when you bid your game in a difficult auction, despite what the opps throw at you, keeps me playing the game.

I want to thank you for this great post, Kathryn. As I have written in the other thread, this is what is really wrong with the bridge world. On the one hand we want to be taken seriously by the other mind sports, on the other hand the large majority of players is taught a different attitude and unsurprisingly now has this attitude of wanting to play a no-fear game.

It should be so that people are taught that the REAL game of bridge is even more fun than what is going on in clubs around the world, and that when someone makes a successful move against them, they congratulate their opponents rather than make them feel like cheaters.

That's the real difference between Bridge and Chess / Go / Draughts, I think. Even in the local chess cafe or chess-in-the-park, people play to win by all legal means. In bridge clubs, they expect you to play only part of the game because otherwise it is not considered fun or fair.

[the hog]

wclass___, on Jun 8 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Let's say you have already made a psychic bid in known auction (e.g. 1♥-[X]-1♠).
Does it mean that you can't psyche here with same partner anymore?
Or you have to prealert?
Can psyche be part of a system?

Well at one stage there were psychic controls which were actually parts of systems. I think Bulldog had some, and am I right in suggesting Kaplan Sheinwold did as well? Anyway they are outlawed now.

By the way, I agree with Gerben. That was an excellent post, Kathryn.

[david_c]

I don't psyche much anyway. But I would only do it against opponents who I know will appreciate it. In a club game I'd say the same thing as gnome - it's not worth the hassle. I play bridge for fun, and if opponents are annoyed at me, that's no fun for me.

As a TD, I would recommend that people don't psyche against players who are likely to be upset by it. But if they're going to go ahead and do it anyway, that's their choice to make. However, I do think that if you are going to psyche you have to be especially careful with your behaviour. It seems to me that many psychers are rather bad at dealing with the negative reactions that they get. Two things I've seen happen when asked to explain a psyche:

- Uncontrollable laughter. Not good. Gives the impression that you're having fun at the opponents' expense.

- Saying, "I can bid what I want" or "Deal with it" or words to that effect. This may all be true according to the Laws, but it comes across as arrogant and obnoxious.

Generally I find people who have psyched tend to react too defensively when the TD is called. If they could avoid this then psyching might not be so much of a problem.

[Cascade]

david_c, on Jun 8 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

It seems to me that many psychers are rather bad at dealing with the negative reactions that they get.

Someone ought to be doing something about these negative reactions.

[matmat]

Cascade, on Jun 8 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

david_c, on Jun 8 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

It seems to me that many psychers are rather bad at dealing with the negative reactions that they get.

Someone ought to be doing something about these negative reactions.

i imagine not many people playing bridge like to be branded as cheaters.

[glen]

imo, the reason tourneys ban psychs is not to protect beginners.

For beginners, everything is a problem - what to bid, what to play, what's going on. Handling a pysch is just another small problem on top of the mountain of challenges. In live bridge beginners often don't even know they have been psyched, as they are too focused on their own hands and don't yet have the skill set to analyse a deal.

The reason tourneys ban psychs is that a lot of their customers hate trickery in the bidding being used, either by their opponents or by their partners. They detest it, feeling it is an underhanded attempt to fool people.

At the local club that has banned most psyches, there are almost no beginners. There are, though, lots of players who have played for many, many years, and who hate psyches. They have found that while psychs are legal in bridge, it takes away their enjoyment of the game. The club has banned psyches for these customers, and it has nothing to do with beginners.

If BBO allowed it for their ACBL tourneys, that players could put "no psychs please" in their profiles, and you were not allowed to psych with these players, either as partners or opponents, then what you would find is not a lot of novices and intermediates with this. Instead you will find advanced, expert, "world class", and all sorts of life masters, including gold and diamond life masters, with "no psychs please". For its a set of the long timers that hate psychs, and want them out of their game.

[hrothgar]

hanp, on Jun 8 2009, 04:14 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Jun 7 2009, 08:09 PM, said:

hanp, on Jun 8 2009, 04:06 AM, said:

Since it is all love and piece I'll try to add a little controversy:

I don't have a problem with psyching against beginners in a club game.

I'll go even further...

If I were to agree never to psych against beginners in a club game, this would represent a concealed partnership agreement.

Partner would be at an advantage because he would KNOW with certainty that I would ever psych in this tye of circumstance.

I think you are way off. There is nothing unusual about such an agreement and should the opponents ask then you can answer honestly. There is no reason to prealert this agreement or write it on your conventioncard.

Would you argue that the converse is true?

Assume for the moment that I am much more likely to pysche in situation XYZ.
Moreover, partner is aware of these tendencies.

Would you argue that there is nothing wrong with this and that our partnership doesn't need to make any kind of advanced disclosure?

The reason that I am raising this point is that I beleive that there are a lot of folks who would argue that one set of behaviour is fine while the other is not. I believe that this isn't particularly coherent.

(Please note; I'm not claiming that you would fall into this category... This exchange is simply a useful opportunity to raise this point)

[cherdanno]

If you psych rarely in situation XYZ and never in other situations, there is no need to disclose it unless asked. If your psych frequently in situation XYZ and with normal frequency (i.e., rarely) in other situations, then you should disclose it.

[wclass___]

The_Hog, on Jun 8 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

wclass___, on Jun 8 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Let's say you have already made a psychic bid in known auction (e.g. 1♥-[X]-1♠).
Does it mean that you can't psyche here with same partner anymore?
Or you have to prealert?
Can psyche be part of a system?

Well at one stage there were psychic controls which were actually parts of systems. I think Bulldog had some, and am I right in suggesting Kaplan Sheinwold did as well? Anyway they are outlawed now.

Convention cards - 2008 Mind Sport Games Beijing - open

Rodwell-Meckstroth Psychics: 1♥-P-1♠, light 3rd seat opening.
Freeman-Nickell Psychics: Rare - 1♥-1♠ is occasionaly short ♠'s with ♥ support.
Hackett-Hackett Psychics: sometimes 1M with 3 card
Gromov-Dubinin Psychics: rare 1♦-1M; 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♦; 2♦-2NT
.......
It seems to me that psyche is part of their systems.

One more thing that i doun't get..
P-[P]-2H(w2)-[P] -//- NV-NV; I have something in my hand (say ♥KQJxx) that suggests that partner has psyched (let's say that i am 99% sure about that, probably because partner does psyche quite a lot..). Is pass an option? or not..

[olegru]

Jlall, on Jun 7 2009, 06:57 PM, said:

The one time I think it's unacceptable is if you are an expert playing against a novice in a minor event

Why on the earth should I care about opponents?
Partner is a key factor. He is the only person his feeling I should take into account.
If I will psych against weak opponents and we will get the bad result he will not happy, because chances are we would get a good score in a normal game.
If I will psych often, partner will not be able to trust my bidding.
If I will repeat psych in the similar position with the same partner it became an agreement. Even if partner is experienced enough to alert it he will still in a bad position because it is hard to continue normal bidding if you do not trust your partners bid in certain position.
What I want to say is bluffing (IMHO) very often is a bad idea, but it has nothing to do with unethical behavior or cheating.

[manudude03]

wclass___, on Jun 8 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jun 8 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

wclass___, on Jun 8 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Let's say you have already made a psychic bid in known auction (e.g. 1♥-[X]-1♠).
Does it mean that you can't psyche here with same partner anymore?
Or you have to prealert?
Can psyche be part of a system?

Well at one stage there were psychic controls which were actually parts of systems. I think Bulldog had some, and am I right in suggesting Kaplan Sheinwold did as well? Anyway they are outlawed now.

Convention cards - 2008 Mind Sport Games Beijing - open

Rodwell-Meckstroth Psychics: 1♥-P-1♠, light 3rd seat opening.
Freeman-Nickell Psychics: Rare - 1♥-1♠ is occasionaly short ♠'s with ♥ support.
Hackett-Hackett Psychics: sometimes 1M with 3 card
Gromov-Dubinin Psychics: rare 1♦-1M; 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♦; 2♦-2NT
.......
It seems to me that psyche is part of their systems.

One more thing that i doun't get..
P-[P]-2H(w2)-[P] -//- NV-NV; I have something in my hand (say ♥KQJxx) that suggests that partner has psyched (let's say that i am 99% sure about that, probably because partner does psyche quite a lot..). Is pass an option? or not..

It's not that psychics are part of the system, it's just that they have a tendency to make those particular psyches. You will find that they won't cater for the possibility of a psyche, but merely inform the opps of this.

As for your example, that's not enough to assume partner has psyched. Last week I picked up something like KJx AKQxxx Kx Axx and partner opened a weak 2H (doubled by my RHO). Pity they found the killing lead to 6H after our "scientific"auction, but just comes to show you can never assume partner psyched (partner's was JTxxxx)

[Free]

manudude03, on Jun 8 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

It's not that psychics are part of the system, it's just that they have a tendency to make those particular psyches. You will find that they won't cater for the possibility of a psyche, but merely inform the opps of this.

Isn't one of the reasons why Meckwell started with support Doubles exactly to avoid playing in a 3-3 fit?

[helene_t]

jillybean2, on Jun 8 2009, 05:27 AM, said:

How often does any player psyche or encounter psyches? Playing on BBO, I rarely encounter one and nowhere near once every 4 sessions. TD’ing on BBO I get a call about a psyche perhaps once in every 3 tournaments and most of the calls complaining of psyches aren’t psyches at all.

Agree.

I think I have encountered five psyches in 9 years of online bridge. Two of them by myself.

Btw I agree with Han that psyching against beginners is OK. It is stupid but it's ok. Since beginners don't take much inference from opps bidding anyway they are less "harmed" by psyches than stronger players are.

What is maybe problematic is to psyche one of those calls that are notorious for being psyched, such as a 3NT response to a preempt on nothing, when playing with a p who expects such things against opps who don't.

[skjaeran]

I don't see much of a problem psyching.

I'd never do it against rank beginners, though. Not to be gentle towards then - they should learn that psyching is part of the game - but because I'd expect to do well against them by just playing normal bridge.

Anyway, I don't psyche much - very seldom, in fact.