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Missed 4H - ATB

#1 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 02:10

Scoring: IMP

P-P-1-3
3- ALL PASS


6-1 , but 2-2 , so 4 always makes.

Scoring: IMP

P-P-1-3
3- ALL PASS


East has KT , West has the A , so 4 makes if you guess both suits.

Who is at fault?
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 02:38

Top: borderline decision for South. When in doubt... bid game.

Bottom: same thing, except that this time it's North who's borderline.
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#3 User is offline   se12sam 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 03:51

I'm not convinced anyone is to blame in either contract.

1. 4 is good only because trumps are 2-2, South has a doubleton spade, north's J is valuable etc. It's most likely anti-percentage to be in game. Also, impossible to reach scientifically after the 3 overcall.

2. Again, many guesses involved. Too many things were right to make 4.
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#4 User is offline   dicklont 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 03:57

When you start blaming over these hands, someone might blame you for resulting.
There is only a problem for those who consider every invite to be gameforcing.
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Finding your own mistakes is more productive than looking for partner's. It improves your game and is good for your soul. (Nige1)
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#5 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 04:14

I we never play 3 10, then we are regularly overbidding. I think the bidding was fine on both. If anything, south was slightly conservative on the first one. 4 is not always cold, since after a spade lead one would need the hearts to come in.
Michael Askgaard
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#6 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 05:34

On the first one I'd have bid 4 with responder's hand. 3 has to include competitive hands, so most normal limit raises have to bid game. After responder bidds 3, South has a normal pass.

On the second deal the auction looks normal, as does the final contract. Who would want to be in game?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 06:31

Agree with Dicklont, 170 is not a capital sin
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#8 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 07:44

gnasher, on May 25 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

On the first one I'd have bid 4 with responder's hand. 3 has to include competitive hands, so most normal limit raises have to bid game. After responder bidds 3, South has a normal pass.

Actually, if we do a "Fought the Law" analysis, South can expect North to have a doubleton diamond, thus bringing the short suit total to 0, meaning 19-21 working points are enough to make game. He has 12 WPs himself and it's normal to count pard for at least 7-8, so South might have a reason to move on.

In the 2nd hand, the FTL lore actually FAILS: the SST is +2, needing 25-27 WPs for game. Hands have only 24, including a count of 10 WPs on the heart suit (finesse is on, so the 7 hcp are 10 WPs).
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#9 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 07:58

Hi,

#1 there was a thread on the forum, which suggested to use X
over 3D as the bid to show a limit raise.
This was an idea credited to Lawrence.
I have searched the forum, but was not able to find the thread.
Absent this agreement, I think it is close, but bidding 4H is an real
option, there is only one thing which speaks against this:
The 1H opening was in 3rd seat, if you regulary open light in 3rd
seat, than I dont think you should bid 4H.
#2 If you want to blame someone, blame the gods, North has a limit
raise, but not a particular good one, and South has a min. opener
with a wasted Queen.
The key to 4H is the fitting spade values, ... if you want to discover
those values, you could make a t/o, being prepared to bid hearts
later (not unreasonable), but it is usally a good idea to show the fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#10 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 09:29

No one and no one, both auctions are utterly normal. And frankly if these are the two best games I ever miss then I am the best bridge player ever.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#11 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 09:57

jdonn, on May 25 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

No one and no one, both auctions are utterly normal. And frankly if these are the two best games I ever miss then I am the best bridge player ever.

I agree.... this thread is a bad idea. Neither game is good on a single-dummy basis, on the bidding.

To 'blame' anyone is extremely poor bridge. If I bid either game, I would take the imps but my concern would be that my partner and I were terrible bidders.

Put another way: construct auctions to reach game, and have them fail, as they rate to do... then try an ATB.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#12 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 10:53

jdonn, on May 25 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

No one and no one, both auctions are utterly normal. And frankly if these are the two best games I ever miss then I am the best bridge player ever.

You are already the world's best bidder.

1. I think 4 is reasonable by responder, but its OK to have a max. Think what a minimum 3 call looks like and 4 isn't too far off the mark.

2. LOL I'd be worried about going down in 3.
Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#13 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 11:37

The dealer is to blame.

Neither of these are great contracts, and on the second one, I'm already worried we're too high!
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
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#14 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 13:50

In the first hand, West is to blame for your not reaching game. He took away all your space, and made South devalue his suit. Game isn't great, but I expect most pairs would reach it unopposed.

In the second hand, good judgment is to blame. North merely invites, and South decides his hand is mediocre. They are both right.
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#15 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-May-25, 16:41

I blame:

1. 3

2. J and some luck
Wayne Burrows

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#16 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2009-May-26, 00:40

Thanks for all the responses.

Sorry if this thread was not meaningful - I guess it was partly caused by my frustration for losing IMPs on those 2 boards, so I thought I would check if we did anything wrong , since some other pairs in the field did reach those games.
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#17 User is offline   dicklont 

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Posted 2009-May-26, 02:56

P_Marlowe, on May 25 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

#1 there was a thread on the forum, which suggested to use X
     over 3D as the bid to show a limit raise.
     This was an idea credited to Lawrence.

I know this idea from Lawrence in a different auction: 1 (2) 2 (3)
Now 3 is competitive and Dbl is an invite.

Without a know heart fit this double by responder would give up the negative double for just one specific hand.
Would that be a usefull agreement?

When there is more room: 1 (2 2 (3)
Lawrence uses 3 as an artificial limit raise, 3 competitive, double is bussiness.
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Finding your own mistakes is more productive than looking for partner's. It improves your game and is good for your soul. (Nige1)
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#18 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-May-26, 03:38

dicklont, on May 26 2009, 03:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on May 25 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

#1 there was a thread on the forum, which suggested to use X
     over 3D as the bid to show a limit raise.
     This was an idea credited to Lawrence.

I know this idea from Lawrence in a different auction: 1 (2) 2 (3)
Now 3 is competitive and Dbl is an invite.

Without a know heart fit this double by responder would give up the negative double for just one specific hand.
Would that be a usefull agreement?

When there is more room: 1 (2 2 (3)
Lawrence uses 3 as an artificial limit raise, 3 competitive, double is bussiness.

yes, but this is a typical usage, the name of the double is "Maximimal
Double".

Over 3D, X is the general Game, over 3C, 3D is general game try,
Double is still a game try, but optional / penalty orientend.

But there was a thread involving the auction

1H - (3D ) - X

...

I found the idea sensible, and because of this wanted to reread it,
but was not able to retrieve it.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#19 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2009-May-26, 12:58

The first one is, at best, a marginal game. I'd not be disappointed for missing it.... nor bidding it. The auction was fine by me.

The second one is a terrible game, even the 3-level might be too high. Better stay out of this one. Fine auction.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#20 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2009-May-27, 10:04

Phil, on May 25 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

jdonn, on May 25 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

No one and no one, both auctions are utterly normal. And frankly if these are the two best games I ever miss then I am the best bridge player ever.

You are already the world's best bidder.

1. I think 4 is reasonable by responder, but its OK to have a max. Think what a minimum 3 call looks like and 4 isn't too far off the mark.

2. LOL I'd be worried about going down in 3.

Agreeing with Phil here. Game is a reasonable shot on 1, noting the favorable positioning. Whether opener can think it is a good shot at IMPs may depend on how light the raise to 3 can be.

As for hand 2..LOL at bidding game here, this is a very odds against game.
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