[peachy]

2C - 2D [2C standard strong artificial. 2D promises at least one K or A]
3H - 4C [3H sets trump, demands cuebidding. 4C is A or K of clubs]
4H -

What does opener have? Has opener denied a diamond control?
- If opener has denied diamond control; should responder bid on with Qx-xx-Kxxx-Kxxxx. Why? Or why not?
- If opener has not denied diamond control, what is his reason for not showing the diamond control? And should responder with the above hand bid on?

I would like to hear opinions from some good theorists and experts.

[Phil]

No but Opener is probably concerned with ♠'s.

[Codo]

Opener has no spade control. Easy.

[pirate22]

2cl -2d(promises an ace or king????) what does responder bid with neither Pass?

[Cascade]

I think ...

Opener has no spade control or no diamond control - easy!

[miguelm]

You promised an Ace or a King.
You already (apparently) showed what you have (4C).
If you have nothing else, opener wants to settle with 4H.

[rbforster]

peachy, on Apr 30 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

What does opener have? 

On this auction, it sounds like opener was hoping to hear about a spade control.

peachy, on Apr 30 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

I would like to hear opinions from some good theorists and experts.

After the jump to 3M setting trumps, I have read some people play that cue bids show aces specifically, while 3N shows king(s) but no aces (over which 4♣ asks which). Often opener with a distributional hand and only a few side losers will care a lot if you've got K opposite his stiff or A.

pirate22 said:

2cl -2d(promises an ace or king????) what does responder bid with neither Pass?

2♣-2♥ in these methods is an immediate artificial negative, showing less than a K.

[mike777]

pirate22, on Apr 30 2009, 03:27 AM, said:

2cl -2d(promises an ace or king????) what does responder bid with neither  Pass?

You bid 2h which denies A or K but shows unlimited small points. Opener assumes responder has very little and rebids normally. Responder strains to rebid.

[peachy]

pirate22, on Apr 30 2009, 03:27 AM, said:

2cl -2d(promises an ace or king????) what does responder bid with neither Pass?

An attempt at sarcasm? Or show of ignorance?

No. Responder will not Pass. In the described method, he will bid 2H which denies any ace or king though may have some points, or may have nothing.

[awm]

It depends somewhat on your cuebidding style. Do you always cuebid aces first or cuebid any first or second round control up the line? Do you play something like last train?

It's clear that opener will not have both a spade control and a diamond control. Which one is lacking is not necessarily obvious. The styles seem to be:

(1) If you cuebid first or second round controls up the line and play last train then responder has denied a spade control. Opener's 4♥ says he doesn't have a spade control either. Responder should always pass 4♥.

(2) If you cuebid first round controls first, then opener's 4♥ denies the diamond ace. He will either be completely missing a diamond control, or have second round controls (only) in the pointed suits. With ♠A and ♦K he is obligated to cuebid again in this style. Responder should cuebid again with the diamond ace or king or pass otherwise.

(3) If you cuebid first or second round controls and don't play last train, or if you have no special agreements, then opener is either wide open in some pointed suit, or has second round control (only) in both pointed suits. Responder should bid on with another control outside clubs, or pass otherwise.

[peachy]

Thanks all who responded. here are the hands.

Scoring: IMP

2C-2D
3H-4C
4H - PPP

---

How would you have bid these hands, using the methods described in my original post? And ATB for us missing the slam.

[gnasher]

awm, on Apr 30 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

The styles seem to be:

There is another style, applicable when both players are unlimited, where cooperating with partner's cue-bid shows more suitability than you've already shown, and signing off doesn't deny an intervening control. That seems to be what opener was doing on the actual hand.

[mike777]

2c=2d
2h(not 3h)=3c
3h=4h
5c=5d
6h


3h is way too much

[bid_em_up]

I happen to think 3H is just fine. It is a self-sufficient trump suit and partner should know that he could cue even when holding a stiff or void.

The blame (imo) goes to North for failing to cue 4D. Now South will probably just bid 4H, and North can continue on with 5C (this, should assure at least 2nd round control in spades since South has denied a spade control). South bids 5D, and North bids 6H.

btw, I dislike the methodology of 2D promising an ace or king. Using 2H as a "denying" bid is better served to be a totally bust hand (0-3 hcp), and 2D is simply waiting, imo.

[blackshoe]

With my one expert (and occasional) partner, I play 2♥ as the bust hand, and 2♦ as "a couple of queens or better, GF". 2NT shows hearts, other simple responses are natural.

My personal preference is to show controls. With just a king (or no control), 2♦. With one ace or two kings, 2♥. 3♣ shows 5 controls. 3♦/3♥ are transfers, showing basically a weak two in the transfer major (GF).

I've seen an awful lot of players who seem to think that a "strong and forcing" 2♣ opener is only forcing to one trick below game (2NT, 3 of a major, 4 of a minor). I don't think such players have considered the ramifications of their approach.

[jdonn]

blackshoe, on May 1 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

I've seen an awful lot of players who seem to think that a "strong and forcing" 2♣ opener is only forcing to one trick below game (2NT, 3 of a major, 4 of a minor). I don't think such players have considered the ramifications of their approach.

It seems clear 2♣ then 2NT should be non-forcing as long as partner didn't show any strength with his reply. I'm not sure how you could possibly debate that. 2♣ then 2M then 3M is perhaps more debatable, but again as long as responder hasn't shown strength (or has denied strength) then it seems like a reasonable approach.

[blackshoe]

I don't debate that 2NT (assuming it shows the usual "just below enough for game by myself" range) should be non-forcing; I included that call for completeness. As for bidding and rebidding a major, a lot depends on the response structure. If you play 2♣-2♥ as a complete bust, is opener's 3♥ rebid forcing? What about 2♣-2♦-2M-3♣-3M? If 2♦ is waiting, and 3♣ is a second negative, I'd agree 3M is not forcing. But if 2♦ is "a couple of queens or better, GF", then 3♣ is not a second negative, and 3M is forcing. I have nonetheless seen people pass it. When opener has a minor suit, things get even muddier.

[AnJoe]

blackshoe, on May 1 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

With my one expert (and occasional) partner, I play 2♥ as the bust hand, and 2♦ as "a couple of queens or better, GF". 2NT shows hearts, other simple responses are natural.

My personal preference is to show controls. With just a king (or no control), 2♦. With one ace or two kings, 2♥. 3♣ shows 5 controls. 3♦/3♥ are transfers, showing basically a weak two in the transfer major (GF).

I've seen an awful lot of players who seem to think that a "strong and forcing" 2♣ opener is only forcing to one trick below game (2NT, 3 of a major, 4 of a minor). I don't think such players have considered the ramifications of their approach.

I've seen an awful lot of players who seem to think that a "strong and forcing" 2♣ opener is only forcing to one trick below game (2NT, 3 of a major, 4 of a minor). I don't think such players have considered the ramifications of their approach. dry.gif

This approach has worked well enough for me for the last 45 years == but then, I am an old fashioned player.

[Codo]

peachy, on May 1 2009, 03:37 PM, said:

Thanks all who responded. here are the hands.

Scoring: IMP

2C-2D
3H-4C
4H - PPP

---

How would you have bid these hands, using the methods described in my original post? And ATB for us missing the slam.

South did fine with his bids, but all his bids had been forced, so this was no big deal.


North did fine too.
For a slam to make, he needs more then two tricks from partner. And running clubs won't be enough, so it was certanly reasonable to bid just 4 Heart. He had no tool avaiable to ask for all kings he needs.

[jdonn]

Codo, on May 4 2009, 03:16 AM, said:

peachy, on May 1 2009, 03:37 PM, said:

Thanks all who responded. here are the hands.

Scoring: IMP

2C-2D
3H-4C
4H - PPP

---

How would you have bid these hands, using the methods described in my original post?  And ATB for us missing the slam.

South did fine with his bids, but all his bids had been forced, so this was no big deal.


North did fine too.
For a slam to make, he needs more then two tricks from partner. And running clubs won't be enough, so it was certanly reasonable to bid just 4 Heart. He had no tool avaiable to ask for all kings he needs.

I think the problem was rebidding 3♥ instead of 2♥. If north simply bids and rebids his hearts then south will know he has good values. But the way north did bid it, he made it seem like there was no spade control. North doesn't have the hand to jump rebid, there are too many holes to fill. So I disagree that north did fine.