[pirate22]

well they say one learns something every day----playing imps new pard--3/4 hands have passed by np--partner bids and def well

you pick up A s---AKQ109863---KQ6-- 7 cl partner opens 1n/t 15-17 vul N/Applicable

Im being shot down in another topic "Cardinal Rules"

nothing in either of our profiles states Gerber-just blackwood

so bidding proceeds 1n/t pass 2cl(me) pass
2sp pass 4n/t pass
pass pass ?

should one hit Grandma over the head and just bid 6 hts maybe 7 on???????
should one bid a fancy 1spade)((((((((((or 2cl or 2d pard is not ply transfers STATED, I CHOSE 2cl (stayman) pard had 2 aces and min n/t------if we were ply transfers,, i would do a transfer 2d assume pard bids 2 hts, i would bid 4n/t,and probably get a passed as well

there is an individual that states on any of the sequences 4n/t is passable,
if this is the case i want to retire from Bridge:))))))))))))))

[JLOL]

LOL

[orlam]

You will have to retire from bridge ((((((

[dburn]

Whereas 1NT - 2♣ - 2 any - 4NT is regarded by most as natural and non-forcing, and whereas 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4NT is so regarded by many, the sequence 1NT - 3♥ - anything - 4NT is almost universally regarded as Blackwood (where 3♥ shows hearts).

Come back tomorrow - we will try to have something else for you to learn.

[peachy]

I don't understand why responder used Stayman. Why?
1NT-2C-2S-4NT is a quantitative invite, not Blackwood.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Whereas 1NT - 2♣ - 2 any - 4NT is regarded by most as natural and non-forcing, and whereas 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4NT is so regarded by many,

Those are the book meanings, anyway, as any decent convention book will describe. Any good adv+ player should assume that. Maybe half the beginner/ints have mislearned the second sequence though & think it's blackwood like the original poster.

Quote

the sequence 1NT - 3♥ - anything - 4NT is almost universally regarded as Blackwood (where 3♥ shows hearts).

Although this is probably what should be standard, undiscussed, there are so many alternative uses of 3♥ that I would be hesitant to trot it out with a pickup sans discussion. 3H natural slam try is the SAYC documented meaning but it's a rare call & many have not read the document thoroughly.

I think Gerber is safest to use with most pickup partners, regardless of whether it is listed on the profile or not. It is explicitly part of SAYC, Bridge World Standard, and is frequently the third or fourth convention taught to beginners even though it probably shouldn't be.

[P_Marlowe]

peachy, on Apr 28 2009, 01:50 AM, said:

I don't understand why responder used Stayman.  Why?
1NT-2C-2S-4NT is a quantitative invite, not Blackwood.

While this is certainly a good agreement, and may even be standard
among players from a certain level onwards, it is not clear, since this
agreement assumes, that you have a forcing raise for the shown
major available.

But if you dont have a forcing raise available, than 4NT is asking for
Aces / key cards.

In the given seq. 4NT is one of those bids, when you make it, be prepared
that it may lead to a misunderstanding.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

In the given seq. 4NT is one of those bids, when you make it, be prepared
that it may lead to a misunderstanding.

Among weak players you will get misunderstanding on this sequence I agree. With weak players expect misunderstanding on many sequences!

Quote

But if you dont have a forcing raise available, than 4NT is asking for
Aces / key cards.

Strongly, strongly disagree. 3 of the other major should be taken by any strong player as agreeing the major bid and creating a forcing auction. With a weak player, they will not field this, but then any bid is somewhat dangerous with a weak player. 4c after 2c stayman is still Gerber for many, you don't need it for clubs since 3c is forcing natural. But splinter is also possible meaning for 4c.

Really with a pickup partner, if you wish to bid slam after stayman, the most practical thing to do is just bid the slam. It is not required to check for aces first! Yes, occasionally you may reach slam off two aces, but sometimes they will be split and the opponents may let the contract through. A pickup shouldn't be too harsh to you afterwards if you just explain you didn't know if Gerber was still on or not. It'll be better on average than being passed in 4nt, I think. Or if you really just want to know partner's ace count, bid Gerber directly, and don't go through stayman, minimize the chance of disaster.

You should not go around teaching weak players that 4nt is blkwood after 1nt openings, wrong information that has to be unlearned later. Then they go off spouting this nonsense on forums and to other newbies and this misinformation just keeps on going.

[pirate22]

so as explained --pard had "No transfers-No gerber stated" -and replier's,
have not stated, what there choice of handling the sequence would be ,
i still rule out bidding 6 hts directly.

and i made no comment to my partner----------or taught any thing to anyone,
how presumptuos,
also my partner,had not stated he/she was a weak player :)

ewgards

[andy_h]

Indy's are fun.

[Free]

pirate22, on Apr 28 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

~snip~
also my partner,had not stated he/she was a weak player :)

Yes he did, he mentioned "No transfers"...

[Trinidad]

Playing with an unknown partner is an art in itself. My suggestion is that you would read S.J. Simon's excellent book 'Why you loose at bridge'.

The place where your reasoning goes wrong is that you state: 'i still rule out bidding 6 hts directly.' while you are playing with an unknown partner. Instead of ruling out a bid, you should ask yourself:

- What information can I still get?
- Will that information help me make a decision?

If you ask yourself the first question, you will see that the information that you want to get (how many aces does partner have?), is impossible to obtain. After all, your partneship doesn't have an ace asking bid.

That just means that you will have to make the decision based on the information that you do have. That means bid 6♥ now. Get the best result possible given the circumstances. Don't try to get the result that you would get if you would play your pet system with your pet partner. You are not playing your pet system with your pet partner.

If you feel lucky, you can bid 7♥, 6NT or 7NT. But the key point is that you shouldn't start messing around, creating a convoluted auction, when it cannot possibly help you (unless you are playing against me, of course ).

Rik

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

so as explained --pard had "No transfers-No gerber stated"

This is a *different* condition from your original post. You said "nothing in either of our profiles states Gerber", which reads as "Gerber not mentioned", not that partner had specifically declared in their profile "no Gerber".

If partner says nothing about Gerber I will use it. If partner specifically declares "no Gerber" then I won't.

Quote

i still rule out bidding 6 hts directly.

In this condition you have no choice but to guess as Trinidad states. If you held ♠A ♥AKQT9xxx ♦KQx ♣X I would guess 7, opposite a 15-17 NT I think partner will have the missing aces substantially more often than you'll be missing one. If you held "xs--AKQJ98652 h---K2 d--xcl" like you did in the other thread where you first told this story (I assume at least one of these hands is fictional), I would only bid 6.

Quote

read S.J. Simon's excellent book 'Why you loose at bridge'.

That would be "Why you lose at bridge".

[Trumpace]

pirate22, on Apr 28 2009, 05:39 AM, said:

and i made no comment to my partner----------or taught any thing to anyone,
how presumptuos,

Umm...

Does starting a thread called "Cardinal Rules" to spread the gospel qualify?

[Trinidad]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 28 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

Quote

read S.J. Simon's excellent book 'Why you loose at bridge'.

That would be "Why you lose at bridge".

Now I know why I lose at spelling bees.

Rik

[Trinidad]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 28 2009, 02:14 AM, said:

peachy, on Apr 28 2009, 01:50 AM, said:

I don't understand why responder used Stayman.  Why?
1NT-2C-2S-4NT is a quantitative invite, not Blackwood.

While this is certainly a good agreement, and may even be standard
among players from a certain level onwards, it is not clear, since this
agreement assumes, that you have a forcing raise for the shown
major available.

But if you dont have a forcing raise available, than 4NT is asking for
Aces / key cards.

In the given seq. 4NT is one of those bids, when you make it, be prepared
that it may lead to a misunderstanding.

With kind regards
Marlowe

The possibility for a quantitative auction is more important than the possibility to check for aces. Playing simple bridge, 1NT-2♣; 2♠-5♠ is available as a slam invitation in spades. And 1NT-2♣; 2♠-4NT is available as a slam invitation in NT. And then there is no ace asking bid.

It is nice to have a conventional way to agree spades, if both you and your partner know what way that is. Playing with a pick up partner on BBO, I would not expect partner to play the same convention as I do. I would keep it simple.

I am a reasonably strong player and Stephen says that I should take 3♠ in the auction 1NT-2♣; 2♥-3♠ as a (general) conventional forcing raise of spades. ("3 of the other major should be taken by any strong player as agreeing the major bid and creating a forcing auction.") I think it should be pointed out that these things depend on the whole 1NT structure. In my 1NT structure, 3♦ is available as a GF raise of the major. This means that 1NT-2♣; 2♥-3♠ is a splinter (agreeing hearts) and not some unspecific GF heart raise.

If Stephen would be playing with me (it would be my pleasure) he would be wrong. I would drive to slam with a minimum hand and 4 small spades and find out that I can't get rid of the spade losers.

In the post mortum, I would have figured out that Stephen thinks that every strong player plays the Hamman slam try (as it is called) but I would tell him that I know how it works, but that I think that I have something better. (And I have the idea that Bob Hamman has something better too. ) But I think that if Stephen would just bid 5♥ with me (or with Bob Hamman ) he would get a better result on the board.

Rik

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I am a reasonably strong player and Stephen says that I should take 3♠ in the auction 1NT-2♣; 2♥-3♠ as a (general) conventional forcing raise of spades.

Forcing raise of hearts, you meant.

Quote

I think it should be pointed out that these things depend on the whole 1NT structure. In my 1NT structure, 3♦ is available as a GF raise of the major. This means that 1NT-2♣; 2♥-3♠ is a splinter (agreeing hearts) and not some unspecific GF heart raise.

Yes, of course it depends on structure. But would you ever assume your 3♦ structure is in effect without discussion? When 99% of players would assume 3♦ is natural in the absence of special agreements? On the other hand, 3♠ over 2♥ doesn't really have a natural meaning when you have transfers agreed, if you only had spades and not hearts you would have transferred.

The meaning I suggest is the "Bridge World Standard" meaning, the consensus meaning American experts should assume without extensive discussion, determined by poll.

Quote

In the post mortum, I would have figured out that Stephen thinks that every strong player plays the Hamman slam try (as it is called)

No, I don't think that every strong player plays it (haven't seen it attributed to Hamman before), I just think it should be the default assumption if two experts sit down for the first time with little discussion and agree on "expert SA" as the basis for system. That's what "Bridge World Standard" is intended for. Certainly that's a better thing to assume than a conventional 3♦!
Even if you think 3s is splinter with specifically spade shortness, at least you know hearts are trumps and if partner follows with 4nt you will interpret it as blkwood/RKC and pass partner's heart signoffs! You might have trouble evaluating if partner bids 3s ... 4H (I wouldn't perpetrate that auction undiscussed), but if you bid 3nt/4m as a safety mechanism over 3S instead of bidding RKC immediately yourself, the "force to slam with xxxx spades opposite presumed spl" will often be avoided if partner grabs captaincy.

But certainly on BBO with the average "BBO expert" (= not really expert) I think I agree with just bidding 5M. I'd only ever try the 3OM with people I know to be true experts/adv+ players, and probably only American based ones.

[mtvesuvius]

This is simply LOL.

Pirate22, I suggest you retire from bridge.

These are basic things that 4NT is quantitative. My final advice would be to play with people who play Transfers and Texas Transfers, this will solve a lot of your problems... if you know how to play them.