[jmcw]

Partner leads a low spade, you hold:

1. ♠ A83. You win and return ?
2. ♠ A832 You win and return ?

What is consistant win upside down count signals.

Does it matter vesus a suit contract or NT.

[Phil]

UD has nothing to do with this, but I see people that play 3/5(low) get crossed up.

1. Lead back the 8
2. Lead back the 2

[CSGibson]

It does matter between a suit contract and NT for me. I would always give count at NT (highest from 2 remaining cards, lowest from 3 or more*), but in a suit contract it might be more important to play attitude leads, asking for a switch, in which case I will always play the 8 if I want a switch, and the lowest if I want the suit continued.

*lowest from 3 or more is not standard (original 4th best is standard), but its often less confusing for partner to show 4 when you really have 5 than to make him guess whether you originally had 3, 4, or 5 cards in a suit.

[gnasher]

I think it's a matter of agreement, though many casual partnerships seem not to bother. I have played either present upside down count or original upside down count. I've noticed that many people think that there's one way which is obviously right, but opinions are divided as to which is obvious.

One thing I do feel strongly about is that the card you play should be the same whether you're following suit, leading the suit back, or discarding. Anything else makes my head hurt.

A factor to consider is that from an original Hxx you sometimes have to lead back the middle card, either to unblock or to pin a spot card in dummy. If you have to do this sometimes, maybe you should do it always.

This RGB thread may be illuminating, or not.

[655321]

Wow, I agree with Phil that reverse signals has nothing to do with this.

I have always (even playing reverse signals, or playing 3/5 opening leads) returned the 8 from A83, and the 2 from A832. It was a learning experience for me to read gnasher's RGB thread and find out that some people do play this differently.

[whereagles]

I play attitude shifts/continuations, so I'd play

1. The 8

2. The 8 or 2, depending whether I want the suit continued or not. Usually, in NT I want it continued and in a suit contract I don't.

[xcurt]

My carding philosophy is attitude first, then suit pref, and count in "obvious count" situations. What makes a situation "obvious count" isn't always clear, of course.

When returning the suit, if it's a count situation (eg looking at dummy we have perfect knowledge it's a cashout situation) I would return highish from even and low from odd.

When returning the suit, if it's an attitude situation I would return highish from no interest and low from interest in continuing the suit.

If I had no idea what was right I would probably lead my count card, although I could theoretically see an argument to play an attitude card, high justified (ie low means encourage, or no idea/no desire for partner to switch).

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Apr 19 2009, 04:39 PM, said:

A factor to consider is that from an original Hxx you sometimes have to lead back the middle card, either to unblock or to pin a spot card in dummy.  If you have to do this sometimes, maybe you should do it always.

While it's true sometimes you have to lead the middle card from Hxx, sometimes you have to specifically not lead the middle card as well. There are many examples like

---

Though you could lead the honor then the low card, that would tend to cause partner to misread the position. It is similar to the decision between upside down and standard carding. There are plenty of cases that win for each, so while a very intense and thorough study might conclusively show one or the other to be a little better, best to just do what you're comfortable with.

[Mbodell]

Phil, on Apr 19 2009, 08:46 AM, said:

UD has nothing to do with this, but I see people that play 3/5(low) get crossed up.

1. Lead back the 8
2. Lead back the 2

This is definitely the standard agreement for people near me (west coast us) amongst folks who have agreements.

[TimG]

Phil, on Apr 19 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

UD has nothing to do with this, but I see people that play 3/5(low) get crossed up.

Marshall Miles recommends that on the second round of the suit you play high from an original odd holding and low from an original even holding. Treating odd holdings one way and even holdings another is like the 3rd/5th(lowest) approach. I imagine that some 3rd/5th(lowest) leaders get mixed up by not being sure whether original holding or present holding is the determinant.

[peachy]

Count signal is given when following suit to an opponent's lead. When winning the first trick (or some other trick on partner's lead), standard return from original 3-card holding is the top from the remaining two, and this has nothing to do whether one plays upside down count and/or attitude, or not.

[gnasher]

[quote name='jdonn' date='Apr 20 2009, 04:21 AM']While it's true sometimes you have to lead the middle card from Hxx, sometimes you have to specifically not lead the middle card as well. There are many examples like

---

Now I'd play the ace at trick one, and if the plan is to use this suit to attack dummy's trumps I'd then have to continue with the small one.

[jmcw]

peachy, on Apr 19 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

Count signal is given when following suit to an opponent's lead.  When winning the first trick (or some other trick on partner's lead), standard return from original 3-card holding is the top from the remaining two, and this has nothing to do whether one plays upside down count and/or attitude, or not.

This agreement seems to be consistant with many (but not all) of the posts. But why so? Is there some compelling logic that I'm missing!

I get the idea of retuning high/low from original holding of 3 if unblocking or pinning is a consideration, but what if it's not?

Another consideration is what to lead from XX, does it not make sense to lead low if playing upside down count. Ofcourse if your leading from Hx, the honor would still be lead.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Apr 20 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 20 2009, 04:21 AM, said:

While it's true sometimes you have to lead the middle card from Hxx, sometimes you have to specifically not lead the middle card as well. There are many examples like

ATxx J76x Q8 K9x

Though you could lead the honor then the low card, that would tend to cause partner to misread the position.

North has led a low one from the ace? Usually I'd play the nine at trick one.

The problem you mention might arise at a suit contract, with this layout:
<!-- ONESUIT begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <td> KTxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <td> J76x </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <td> Q8 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <td> A9x][/ONESUIT]
Now I'd play the ace at trick one, and if the plan is to use this suit to attack dummy's trumps I'd then have to continue with the small one.

No, south is on lead, this is responding to your point that with Hxx the middle should be the agreed upon lead since sometimes you have to lead it anyway due to the suit combination. I am saying sometimes you have to lead low due to the suit combination as well.

[barmar]

jmcw, on Apr 20 2009, 07:31 AM, said:

Another consideration is what to lead from XX, does it not make sense to lead low if playing upside down count. Ofcourse if your leading from Hx, the honor would still be lead.

It probably doesn't matter much if it's something like 42, but if the doubleton includes a high spot card, leading the high one first may allow you to hold the trick and repeat the finesse, or force declarer to cover. From there it's just a matter of consistency that you lead high-low with low spot cards as well.

There are some pairs that lead low from doubletons. I don't know what the rationale is, unless it's just to be intentionally different so as to confuse declarers.

[655321]

barmar, on Apr 20 2009, 10:03 PM, said:

There are some pairs that lead low from doubletons. I don't know what the rationale is, unless it's just to be intentionally different so as to confuse declarers.

In Poland it is standard to lead low from doubletons.

Why do you assume that people who play something differently from you do it in order to confuse?

[barmar]

I didn't realize there were areas where low from doubletons was standard. I thought high-low was one of those things that's close to universal.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Apr 20 2009, 04:15 PM, said:

No, south is on lead, this is responding to your point that with Hxx the middle should be the agreed upon lead since sometimes you have to lead it anyway due to the suit combination. I am saying sometimes you have to lead low due to the suit combination as well.

Ah, but that wasn't my point.

original poster said:

Partner leads a low spade, you hold:

1. ♠ A83. You win and return ?
2. ♠ A832 You win and return ?

me said:

A factor to consider is that from an original Hxx you sometimes have to lead back the middle card, either to unblock or to pin a spot card in dummy. If you have to do this sometimes, maybe you should do it always.

[Emphasis not in original]

Do try to keep up.

[Codo]

barmar, on Apr 21 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

I didn't realize there were areas where low from doubletons was standard. I thought high-low was one of those things that's close to universal.

Common mistake to belive that the unviverse is universal and everywhere they must do it the way I do- or they are wrong.


For the problem: I lead the 2 and the 8, because we lead high from odd remaining cards and low from even. We do this for no particular reason- maybe just to confuse some american midwester. Unluckily we don't have many of them around here.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Apr 21 2009, 03:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 20 2009, 04:15 PM, said:

No, south is on lead, this is responding to your point that with Hxx the middle should be the agreed upon lead since sometimes you have to lead it anyway due to the suit combination. I am saying sometimes you have to lead low due to the suit combination as well.

Ah, but that wasn't my point.

original poster said:

Partner leads a low spade, you hold:

1. ♠ A83. You win and return ?
2. ♠ A832 You win and return ?

me said:

A factor to consider is that from an original Hxx you sometimes have to lead back the middle card, either to unblock or to pin a spot card in dummy. If you have to do this sometimes, maybe you should do it always.

[Emphasis not in original]

Do try to keep up.

Well you could nitpick over minor details as usual, or pretend to learn something by realizing the same point exists on responder's return, such as in my examples if partner is on lead and the E/W hands are reversed.