[kenberg]

"Violence by normal people", with or without the adjective "random", may be a little tough to define. I doubt JoAnne had a precise definition in mind. From her examples, I took her to mean something like "violence without the purpose of gain or the purpose of revenge against a specific individual". So I wouldn't much distinguish between a guy climbing a tower and shooting students and a guy in a classroom shooting students. Two different guys so two different reasons, if "reason" is an applicable word, but I don't see the two events as all that different in terms of cause or prevention. In both cases, I start by saying they are nuts. Which I guess rules out the "normal people" part. Maybe, if we want to try to get at it, it could be agreed to look at purposeless violence. The killer has a purpose, it's to kill people, but beyond that he will gain nothing and frequently kills himself.

For myself, I am not at all sure that on a per capital basis this sort of violence is greater now than it was, say, fifty years ago. If it is, I have no strong idea why. Military strikes? As far as I know, violence in the US did not increase after we dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Environment? The polar ice caps are melting so I'm going to go out and shoot a bunch of people? Seems unlikely.


Education (formal): The well-off kids get much better than I got when I was young, the less well off get much worse than when I was young. It was much closer to even in my youth. Not great, but much more even. The gap in educational opportunity is huge, and this must be addressed. It's not hard to imagine this leading young people into crime. I'm agnostic on whether it produces more purposeless violence. Education needs attention for a whole bunch of pretty obvious reasons. I think money is far from the whole issue, but it helps.

Education (informal): I imagine if Dad is slapping Mom around it doesn't do the kids any good.

[Winstonm]

Quote

The gap in educational opportunity is huge, and this must be addressed. It's not hard to imagine this leading young people into crime.

An interesting point, Ken. I hadn't realized how bad things were educationally, but I was aware at how often community colleges were all that was available financially to the middleclass.

The key issue in violence (according to experts) is a feeling of "I don't have anything more to lose". It is this hopelessness that needs to be addressed. The polarization of wealth and educational opportunities certainly contributes to these feelings of nothing to lose.

After all, the same "nothing left to lose" sentiment was a contributing cause of the French revolution.

[jdonn]

I agree about improving education as a good way to reduce violence. The nice thing about improving education is it leads to a perpetually better system. The current generation of children who received better educations become better teachers for the next generation, etc etc etc.

The not-nice thing about improving education is that, even though it would be virtually unanimous that it should be done (of course with great disagreements as to how) it takes a long time for the differences to show up in society. That makes it politically difficult to undertake, because we spend more money and don't immediately have anything to show for it, and then your opposition gets on you for spending more money. I certainly don't envy Obama (or anyone else involved) for having to try.

[onoway]

I remember reading a study years ago ( so no possible way to cite the exact one now) of small children being put into rooms with lots of toys to wait for the "official" study to start. One room had general sorts of tv programs playing in the background and the other had violent programs playing in the background. There was a strong measurable difference in terms of the amount of "antisocial" behaviour (yelling, kicking, hitting etc.) in the room with the violent TV programs as opposed to the other room.

Considering that so many Northamerican kids grow up spending massive amounts of time both watching violence on tv and committing mayhem in video games, it doesn't surprise me at all that the level of violence has gone up, it is just mildly surprising it hasn't gone up more.

Better education is a wonderful concept- but that is an entirely different thread as I don't think that is going to happen without a major overhaul in most education systems. I believe most schools are more like factories now, way too big and impersonal.I think the environment contributes to antisocial behaviour in that too many kids are competing for the attention/approval of too few adults.Also, there are too few adults to cope appropriately with problems when they do arise. Most kids would do as well/better out of there if there was anyone around to structure bits of their day around learning things like how to read and manipulate numbers and getting a sense of the wonders that are out there to know about.

Read something the other day: "Parents are too involved with trying to give their kids the things they didn't have when they grew up and not involved enough with giving them what they DID have that enabled them to succeed."

OTOH isn't it sort of the duty of every generation to think that the next generation is sending the world to hell in a handbasket?

[y66]

Alan Paton spent a dozen or so years as headmaster of a reform school in South Africa. In Too Late The Phalarope, which he wrote in 1953, the young male protagonist struggles to fight off temptation, succumbs, and then he and his family are destroyed. Very different from a random act of violence but maybe not so different in that what might have changed the outcome, in Paton's view, is if the protagonist had been able to talk to his father in a way that could maybe be described as feeling listened to with interest and empathy. Not that empathetic listening is sufficient or that it changes anything for guys like the Javier Bardem character in No Country For Old Men or the guy Springsteen recalls, but for many nearly "normal" people, it makes a difference, or so Paton would have us think. I think he has a point.

[Gerben42]

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The key issue in violence (according to experts) is a feeling of "I don't have anything more to lose". It is this hopelessness that needs to be addressed. The polarization of wealth and educational opportunities certainly contributes to these feelings of nothing to lose.

I agree with this, but unfortunately society is built in a way that they are right. There isn't going to be much demand for unqualified work in the future, especially in the richer countries. In all but the richest countries there are still jobs that are done by sheer manpower, while here all such jobs have been automated or outsourced (while too expensive).

You cannot economically put together mobile phones by manpower if you have to pay every employee €5 an hour for just a 40-hour week. These jobs will cease to exist completely in the richest countries.

If you see mom and dad are without a job and, because they haven't got an education, are not getting any job either, what hope do the kids perceive to have?

In an economical downturn, I think we're going to see more of this, not less.

[mike777]

All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone.
Blaise Pascal

In other words it is nature not nurture that is the real issue.

However I agree having millions of unemployed young men will never help the issue of stopping violence.

[Lobowolf]

Gerben42, on Apr 14 2009, 03:08 AM, said:

If you see mom and dad are without a job and, because they haven't got an education, are not getting any job either, what hope do the kids perceive to have?

Hopefully, the recognition that it's important to get an education.

[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Apr 14 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Apr 14 2009, 03:08 AM, said:

If you see mom and dad are without a job and, because they haven't got an education, are not getting any job either, what hope do the kids perceive to have?

Hopefully, the recognition that it's important to get an education.

How would an uneducated child with uneducated parents either figure out or be taught that logic?

[PassedOut]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

How would an uneducated child with uneducated parents either figure out or be taught that logic?

Interestingly, it seems to me that uneducated immigrants to the US often do a good job of teaching their kids the importance of an education. Of course immigrants usually do have jobs and work hard at them.

[Lobowolf]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

How would an uneducated child with uneducated parents either figure out or be taught that logic?

Many uneducated parents realize that their lack of an education is severely harming their economic status and opportunities, and they try to impart that knowledge to their children. That's probably the first and best chance. I know friends or parents of friends, and secondary family (cousins, etc.) members who were the first in their families to go to college. The fact that their parents and other relatives were not college educated, and in some cases were quite UNeducated didn't stop them from recognizing the importance of education and imparting that importance to their children, and getting their children to take advantage of opportunities they didn't have.


There's always the public service announcement "Stay in School" stuff, but probably actual personal appearances by celebrity role models giving talks about the importance of education would be better, along those lines. Truly inspirational teachers are good for that, too, but they're generally few and far between, and not nearly as high on the influence scale as family, friends, or celebrities. Underfunded schools are certainly a problem, but there are also problems that are incidental to money. I'd put my money on a motivated student in a bad school ahead of an unmotivated student in a mediocre school. Some teenagers recognize the worth and importance of their cars, and take good care of them; some trash them. Giving the ones who trash them better cars isn't the answer.

[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Apr 14 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

How would an uneducated child with uneducated parents either figure out or be taught that logic?

Many uneducated parents realize that their lack of an education is severely harming their economic status and opportunities, and they try to impart that knowledge to their children.

I strongly suspect that a lot fewer uneducated people recognize the importance of an education than do educated people. In fact if that weren't the case it would be something of a paradox. If what you say is correct, wouldn't there be something of a pattern of alternating generations within families attending college? I guess it depends what you mean by many. 10 million people out of a group of 100 million isn't many imo.

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I know friends or parents of friends,  and secondary family (cousins, etc.) members who were the first in their families to go to college.  The fact that their parents and other relatives were not college educated, and in some cases were quite UNeducated didn't stop them from recognizing the importance of education and imparting that importance to their children, and getting their children to take advantage of opportunities they didn't have.

In every family someone was the first to go to college. I don't see what you knowing some of those people really shows.

[Lobowolf]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Apr 14 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

How would an uneducated child with uneducated parents either figure out or be taught that logic?

Many uneducated parents realize that their lack of an education is severely harming their economic status and opportunities, and they try to impart that knowledge to their children.

I strongly suspect that a lot fewer uneducated people recognize the importance of an education than do educated people. In fact if that weren't the case it would be something of a paradox. If what you say is correct, wouldn't there be something of a pattern of alternating generations within families attending college? I guess it depends what you mean by many. 10 million people out of a group of 100 million isn't many imo.

Quote

I know friends or parents of friends,  and secondary family (cousins, etc.) members who were the first in their families to go to college.  The fact that their parents and other relatives were not college educated, and in some cases were quite UNeducated didn't stop them from recognizing the importance of education and imparting that importance to their children, and getting their children to take advantage of opportunities they didn't have.

In every family someone was the first to go to college. I don't see what you knowing some of those people really shows.

I definitely agree that a lot fewer uneducated people recognize the importance of an education than do educated people, and I didn't intend to suggest otherwise. I also agree about "many." As a raw number, 10 million is "many." As a percentage of 100 million people, it's not many.

I wasn't sure entirely how you intended "How would an uneducated child with uneducated parents either figure out or be taught that logic?"

My post was in response to the idea that the notion your intent was hypothetical, i.e. "That can't happen." It can happen, and it does happen. A lot. But much more often than a lot, it doesn't happen.

If you meant to suggest that it's relatively unlikely in any given case, I agree. How do you reach the other 90 million (or however many it is)? I don't know, but I think it's the biggest key to the problem. Maybe you ask the 10% what worked for them. I think money can HELP. It can encourage better teachers, or smaller classroom sizes, pay for public service announcements, or a number of other things.

But I don't think it gets you most of the way to answering the question, "How do you convince kids (or their families) who don't otherwise know it that their education (or their children's education) is important?" If you want to improve education, I think that's the most important question there is.

[mike777]

I have my doubts about all these posts that seem to claim that more education will lead to less violence from normal people. You may be correct but I would argue that the 20th century was the most educated in the history of mankind and it had the most violence from normal people.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

I strongly suspect that a lot fewer uneducated people recognize the importance of an education than do educated people. In fact if that weren't the case it would be something of a paradox. If what you say is correct, wouldn't there be something of a pattern of alternating generations within families attending college?

I think it is a mistake to use "education" to mean college. I think more valuable than a college education is vocational training. Yes, sometimes a college education serves as vocational training, but not always. There are also lots of college educated individuals working jobs that shouldn't require a college degree. Which seems to me like a waste of resources.

[jdonn]

TimG, on Apr 14 2009, 02:38 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

I strongly suspect that a lot fewer uneducated people recognize the importance of an education than do educated people. In fact if that weren't the case it would be something of a paradox. If what you say is correct, wouldn't there be something of a pattern of alternating generations within families attending college?

I think it is a mistake to use "education" to mean college. I think more valuable than a college education is vocational training. Yes, sometimes a college education serves as vocational training, but not always. There are also lots of college educated individuals working jobs that shouldn't require a college degree. Which seems to me like a waste of resources.

I couldn't disagree more. The point isn't training for a specific trade, it's to teach you to think. I do not agree with the association that education's importance is in making as much money as possible.

[PassedOut]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

I do not agree with the association that education's importance is in making as much money as possible.

College is a great place to gain exposure to different and great ideas from thinkers from all ages and places. You learn a perspective there that is difficult to gain if you specialize in a trade too soon.

Even at my age, whenever I see a college catalog I read through it and see many courses I'd like to be able to take, if only my profession did not consume so much of my time. I hate to see young people missing out.

[luke warm]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

TimG, on Apr 14 2009, 02:38 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

I strongly suspect that a lot fewer uneducated people recognize the importance of an education than do educated people. In fact if that weren't the case it would be something of a paradox. If what you say is correct, wouldn't there be something of a pattern of alternating generations within families attending college?

I think it is a mistake to use "education" to mean college. I think more valuable than a college education is vocational training. Yes, sometimes a college education serves as vocational training, but not always. There are also lots of college educated individuals working jobs that shouldn't require a college degree. Which seems to me like a waste of resources.

I couldn't disagree more. The point isn't training for a specific trade, it's to teach you to think. I do not agree with the association that education's importance is in making as much money as possible.

how about for those who prefer votech, who have no desire at all to go to college? maybe someone who wants to be an auto mechanic, or even a barber... i don't think we're talking about making as much money as possible as soon as possible, unless you equate making a living with that

[TimG]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

I do not agree with the association that education's importance is in making as much money as possible.

I don't think I said that and I certainly don't think that an education's importance is in making as much money as possible.

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on Apr 14 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

how about for those who prefer votech, who have no desire at all to go to college? maybe someone who wants to be an auto mechanic, or even a barber... i don't think we're talking about making as much money as possible as soon as possible, unless you equate making a living with that

True, not everyone will make good use of college, sad though that is. In my opinion, society would profit if it were much easier for folks to go to college after spending enough time out in the world to realize the importance of the good education they missed.